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Hard to say. I try not to put it too far under the microscope. By spending less time on trying to describe it, there's more time spent on picking up what's there. Even if it's beyond words and description, it's well within grasp of recognizing and acknowledging. Some matters aren't conducive to words, and it's great to recognize that. Many will never find that because they're too busy trying to force nature into fitting human ways and concepts.
Wise and wonderful words. Thank you for sharing.
Can you expand on your last sentence?
religion is like lenses. It can help you see better. It can also burn the crap out of us with its "truth" too. It can be "dirty" or made improperly, thus distorting our reality.
The "lens" is not bad or good per say. How people use it, teach to it, or how we self reflect on our lens can be un reliable.
If our lens is focusing on "things we can't put into words", we need to start calibration procedures. If we use our lense to "only look here and no where else", that is deceitful more often than not.
It is also insulting to religious people themselves because it suggests that they are moral not because the have empathy, compassion, kindness, selflessness or general good character, but only because they fear god's wrath and punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Who exactly is suggesting this? A passive aggressive voice?
Nobody, believer or not, would say this. They will only see the goodness in the act. And even if the fear of god keeps one on the straight and narrow what is wrong with that. He will reap the rewards, in this world and the next. It is a win win.
Actually, it has been said in the R&S forums many times, but usually in the opposite sense. We haven't seen it for a while, it several years ago, we saw religious people tell the atheists that they were incapable of love, and that they had no innate morals. They said the atheists would rape, murder, batter and steal without a second thought, except for the fact that they were afraid of the punishment of the government. They said that, since love comes from God, that atheists were incapable of loving their spouses and children.
Maybe you haven't seen those posts, but I have. There are religious people that actually believe those things so sincerely that they don't mind saying things like that to other people, no matter how much it hurts the other person.
Actually, it has been said in the R&S forums many times, but usually in the opposite sense. We haven't seen it for a while, it several years ago, we saw religious people tell the atheists that they were incapable of love, and that they had no innate morals. They said the atheists would rape, murder, batter and steal without a second thought, except for the fact that they were afraid of the punishment of the government. They said that, since love comes from God, that atheists were incapable of loving their spouses and children.
Maybe you haven't seen those posts, but I have. There are religious people that actually believe those things so sincerely that they don't mind saying things like that to other people, no matter how much it hurts the other person.
This implies that without religion, people will by default kill and steal, etc. That is rather insulting to moral, non-religious people.
Yes, its my opinion, that (without a fear of being judged/ and/or consequences for ones actions), our world would be much more brutal.
You are right to a certain extent, good morals, empathy do keep SOME people on the right track, but chances are, a large majority behave, simply to avoid the consequences, (they do not want to end up in prison, in this life or the next).
To enjoy life and have a decent quality of life, one must follow the rules and behave.
An example...what do you think prevents most people from going out and robbing a bank? Is it their personal desire to be obedient and refrain from stealing...or is it that many just do not want to pay the consequences of doing that, and give up their quality of life, freedom?
This is why we have laws in place in this world, it relies heavily on people wanting to avoid those consequences.
Actually, it has been said in the R&S forums many times, but usually in the opposite sense. We haven't seen it for a while, it several years ago, we saw religious people tell the atheists that they were incapable of love, and that they had no innate morals. They said the atheists would rape, murder, batter and steal without a second thought, except for the fact that they were afraid of the punishment of the government. They said that, since love comes from God, that atheists were incapable of loving their spouses and children.
Maybe you haven't seen those posts, but I have. There are religious people that actually believe those things so sincerely that they don't mind saying things like that to other people, no matter how much it hurts the other person.
In any very large group you will find people of all types.
Now...take a group that consists of 85% of the people in the world.
Just common sense and human history will show that people are more inclined to be brutal if they do not think there will be any negative consequences for doing so.
In fact...people will allow themselves to be brutalized if they think the punishment for resisting is heavy enough.
Humans are heavily influenced by known and/or anticipated risk and reward.
Actually, it has been said in the R&S forums many times, but usually in the opposite sense. We haven't seen it for a while, it several years ago, we saw religious people tell the atheists that they were incapable of love, and that they had no innate morals. They said the atheists would rape, murder, batter and steal without a second thought, except for the fact that they were afraid of the punishment of the government. They said that, since love comes from God, that atheists were incapable of loving their spouses and children.
Maybe you haven't seen those posts, but I have. There are religious people that actually believe those things so sincerely that they don't mind saying things like that to other people, no matter how much it hurts the other person.
Knowing so well and as you well point out, what so many religious people believe about so many things, most certainly including this that you more specifically point out about atheists, it's hard not to have this awareness always in mind when exchanging these comments with religious people. Perhaps not fair, because not all religious people think these ways, but no doubt too many do. Hard not to always be aware of this fact too.
One might argue this works both ways, but I'm not aware of atheists who makes these kinds of claims about religious people. Not the ones I know anyway. Most of us atheists are surrounded by family and friends who are religious, so other than a fundamental difference about believing in a god or what religion tends to preach, we don't generally believe religious people are "evil" or "immoral" or "incapable of love." I suppose one might also point out the criticisms about all bad things done "in the name of religion." That too is quite commonly done by atheists but religious people too. Only for religious people that's about what people do "in the name" of other religions. Sometimes even their own when they are being objective and honest.
Where does that leave us? Has me leaving this forum a little earlier than usual this morning. I've got other things to do now...
Actually, it has been said in the R&S forums many times, but usually in the opposite sense. We haven't seen it for a while, it several years ago, we saw religious people tell the atheists that they were incapable of love, and that they had no innate morals. They said the atheists would rape, murder, batter and steal without a second thought, except for the fact that they were afraid of the punishment of the government. They said that, since love comes from God, that atheists were incapable of loving their spouses and children.
Maybe you haven't seen those posts, but I have. There are religious people that actually believe those things so sincerely that they don't mind saying things like that to other people, no matter how much it hurts the other person.
We can only deal with one thread at a time, and address only one post and its content at a time. I expect those who posted what you claim were adequately responded to in that thread. I dont see atheists being exactly shy in responding to attacks like that.
I am only addressing the post i responded to and its lack of authenticity. In any case everyone has right to express their opinion, and do so often and repeatedly, and some may hurt.
I am only addressing the post i responded to and its lack of authenticity.
No, you said "Nobody, believer or not, would say this.", which would be IN OTHER posts. And how can it lack authenticity when you have been told it does happen?
Yes, its my opinion, that (without a fear of being judged/ and/or consequences for ones actions), our world would be much more brutal.
You are right to a certain extent, good morals, empathy do keep SOME people on the right track, but chances are, a large majority behave, simply to avoid the consequences, (they do not want to end up in prison, in this life or the next).
To enjoy life and have a decent quality of life, one must follow the rules and behave.
An example...what do you think prevents most people from going out and robbing a bank? Is it their personal desire to be obedient and refrain from stealing...or is it that many just do not want to pay the consequences of doing that, and give up their quality of life, freedom?
This is why we have laws in place in this world, it relies heavily on people wanting to avoid those consequences.
But now you are talking about law, which is different from religion.
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