Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
For someone who isn't a Christian to question the Bible or the God of the Bible isn't foolish. It's part of a legitimate quest for truth.
For a Christian to try to convince someone such as yourself by using the Bible is foolish, for the reasons I stated.
This is why mature Christians understand that all the Great Commission from Jesus requires us to do is present the Gospel message. If and when the time is right for the hearer, God does the calling and the Holy Spirit does the convicting. Unless and until that occurs, the Bible and the Gospel message will seem to be foolishness.
Christians do anchor their claims in what they know. The problem is, this knowing occurs only after one has taken the leap of faith.
I did all sorts of questioning and searching, even after I was born again. God's call and convicting occurred before I even understood what was going on. The questioning and searching eventually led back to a conviction that Christianity provided the best explanation for reality, but the knowing didn't occur until after I had made a real commitment.
The only problem with that is that most of the people I have known intimately -- family and very close friends -- had no leap into faith. They just kept going to the church their parents went to.
Of god created humankind "in hiis image and likeness", would it not make sense that things we think are overwhelming evil should be evil to god, as well?
I believe it's the other way around, phet.
It's not, "What WE think is evil should be evil to God (as well)", but what GOD thinks as evil, should be evil to US (as well). Unfortunately, it's not that way, for many. What may be a small thing to us, may be a VERY BIG thing to God.
You may never rape a child, murder anyone, or rob a bank in your life, phet. But are you selfish? Prideful? Do you lie? Are you uncharitable to others when you have the ability to be generous? Hypocritical? Greedy? God can regard these seemingly 'small' things to be equally, if not MORE harmful to your soul.
As an example, if God's will for us is to be honest, a.k.a., not to lie to God, ourselves and each other, then we are supposed to align our own will with His. We don't get to commit a "little white lie" and say that God "shouldn't" judge us so harshly because of a little white lie. Besides, what one person thinks of as a little white lie, another may think of as a 'horrible' lie. If my "little white lie" caused someone to do something they would NOT have done, had they known thetruth, I would say, that's a pretty big deal. I don't get to look up at God and say, "Oh, come on now, God. No one was physically hurt by my lie, so You "shouldn't" be upset by it, either!"
I don't get to tell God what he "should" or "shouldn't" see as evil. He wrote the rules, therefore, He gets to tell ME.
It's not, "What WE think is evil should be evil to God (as well)", but what GOD thinks as evil, should be evil to US (as well). Unfortunately, it's not that way, for many. What may be a small thing to us, may be a VERY BIG thing to God.
You may never rape a child, murder anyone, or rob a bank in your life, phet. But are you selfish? Prideful? Do you lie? Are you uncharitable to others when you have the ability to be generous? Hypocritical? Greedy? God can regard these seemingly 'small' things to be equally, if not MORE harmful to your soul.
As an example, if God's will for us is to be honest, a.k.a., not to lie to God, ourselves and each other, then we are supposed to align our own will with His. We don't get to commit a "little white lie" and say that God "shouldn't" judge us so harshly because of a little white lie. Besides, what one person thinks of as a little white lie, another may think of as a 'horrible' lie. If my "little white lie" caused someone to do something they would NOT have done, had they known thetruth, I would say, that's a pretty big deal. I don't get to look up at God and say, "Oh, come on now, God. No one was physically hurt by my lie, so You "shouldn't" be upset by it, either!"
I don't get to tell God what he "should" or "shouldn't" see as evil. He wrote the rules, therefore, He gets to tell ME.
It's o.k. I don't take your questions as being facetious. I like to give the benefit of the doubt, unless it's something that's so obviously rude.
Even though I am Christian, I don't pretend to know all the answers. Someone may ask a question that I didn't even think about (yet). So, I propose certain possibilities. And, since I see God as a "good" God, I will see what He does as having "good" in it. But the "good" that I see can't be defined by limited human terms. It is Divine, and therefore beyond my comprehension.
Human beings also define "love" differently. When some hear the word "love", they automatically think of eros (that is, sexual). We define love of a marital partner differently than we define love of a parent, child, friend...or a complete stranger. Some can't even fathom what it means to "love" a stranger.
There is plenty of information about agape love online.
And, for Christians, He is all loving in nature. This is not some "make believe" thing.
I don't think anybody is doing that.
By your answer I don't think I made myself clear.
What I'm saying is, you or another poster implied that gods agape love is something that can only be understood from gods perspective, not ours.
So if that's the case, how can we presume to know anything about it or even if it exists at all?
Ie, not something you can just google to find the answer since the answer in unknowable.
In other words from a human perspective how can anyone claim it even exists?
It's not, "What WE think is evil should be evil to God (as well)", but what GOD thinks as evil, should be evil to US (as well). Unfortunately, it's not that way, for many. What may be a small thing to us, may be a VERY BIG thing to God.
You may never rape a child, murder anyone, or rob a bank in your life, phet. But are you selfish? Prideful? Do you lie? Are you uncharitable to others when you have the ability to be generous? Hypocritical? Greedy? God can regard these seemingly 'small' things to be equally, if not MORE harmful to your soul.
As an example, if God's will for us is to be honest, a.k.a., not to lie to God, ourselves and each other, then we are supposed to align our own will with His. We don't get to commit a "little white lie" and say that God "shouldn't" judge us so harshly because of a little white lie. Besides, what one person thinks of as a little white lie, another may think of as a 'horrible' lie. If my "little white lie" caused someone to do something they would NOT have done, had they known thetruth, I would say, that's a pretty big deal. I don't get to look up at God and say, "Oh, come on now, God. No one was physically hurt by my lie, so You "shouldn't" be upset by it, either!"
I don't get to tell God what he "should" or "shouldn't" see as evil. He wrote the rules, therefore, He gets to tell ME.
And, everyone else.
Good explanation of how you see it. On the other hand when religious people tell us we cannot have morality because it is given only by God, we are still able to see that raping a young child is ultimately more harmful of an action than is telling a white lie. Surely if there is or is not a God we can see when a person is hurting someone else and juge those actions. What about the "soul" of the child being raped?
Honestly, I've learned more about love during the last year-and-a-half while serving out at the Salt Lake Metro Jail with my husband than I did in all of the previous years of my life put together. The thing is, we go into a Sunday School class completely unaware of what the mean we're teaching are charged with. We don't ask them why they're in jail and the seldom volunteer the information. We get to know them as human beings -- often as broken and hurting human beings -- and try to give them hope for a better life. We tell them we don't care what they did wrong; it's what they do in the future that matters. I've seen grown men cry and I've come to realize that most of them are really not that much different than the rest of us. We were talking about adversity one week and I asked for some examples of the adversities they've experience. One man said, "addiction," another said, "divorce." The one that really got to me was the man who said, "Having to watch my children grow up through pictures."
Occasionally, our curiosity will get the best of us and we'll look up an inmate on the jail's records to see what they did to end up incarcerated. It's always surprising, but oddly enough, it really doesn't change how we feel about them. There was one man, in particular, that I really hit it off with. I don't know how to explain it, but he was just always so happy to see us. He seemed so genuinely remorseful for what he'd done, and was so determined to pick a different path once he got out. Turns out, he'd been arrested for online solicitation of a minor. He'd gone to meet her and had been arrested. He was married and had teenage girls himself. It shocked me, but we didn't really feel any differently about him as a person than I had before.
I can't explain any of it. The whole experience has just had such a profound impact on me. I've wondered if I'm just extremely gullible, but I don't think I am. These guys have never tried to take advantage of our friendship and asked for special favors. I just have grown to love them and I can't help it. When I look into their eyes, I can see that they can feel that love.
We haven't been able to go to the jail since mid-March, due to Covid-19. It could be months before we get to go back, but it's one of the things I miss most since the virus broke out.
I believe everything you say and I admire you for the work you do.
I know several people who work with people in jails. They teach college level courses, teach writing essays and fiction. Some even have daily correspondence with them. I see these as an act of charity, giving your time; Community service, as a member of a civil society; acts of generosity and kindness. And I believe you can do these acts only by reserving judgement, as you do. But none of it need to be out LOVE.
I just dont get the love part because love is not an act, it is a feeling. As feelings go it can change, it is not permanent. But action without judgement and emotions, but as duty does not require love.
Good explanation of how you see it. On the other hand when religious people tell us we cannot have morality because it is given only by God, we are still able to see that raping a young child is ultimately more harmful of an action than is telling a white lie. Surely if there is or is not a God we can see when a person is hurting someone else and juge those actions. What about the "soul" of the child being raped?
Sorry Badlander, but I have to leave for a few hours. Will write later...
Sorry Badlander, but I have to leave for a few hours. Will write later...
I'm retired so no rush ☺
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
