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1. Imagine (for a minute or two) that you are a Christian,
Imagine that you're in a Debate Online (City-Data.com, Religion And Spirituality Forum)
This Debate is on "The Existence Of God".
What argument(s) (as far as Evidence For The Existence Of God is concerned), would you present to the "Opposition" in your attempt(s) to "convince" them that there are Sound reasons to believe in God's existence?
Part 2 (This Is for the Christians to address):
2. Imagine for a moment or two that you're an Atheist
Imagine that you're Online (City-Data.com probably). You're in the same Debate as presented in
Part 1 above.
What argument(s) would you present to the "Opposition", in your attempt(s) to "convince" them that there are Good reasons to not believe or to suspend belief (in God's existence)....until convincing evidence shows up?
Sincere arguments (and opinions) from both sides will be appreciated.
Alright, here are my best arguments for why a god might exist:
*The only way we know of to create rules is through a mind. The laws of physics exist. Therefore, it seems like the laws of physics might have been created from a mind.
*Evidence for this mind might someday be shown, in part, through quantum physics. I'm not very knowledgeable about quantum physics, but I have heard something like whether or not quantum particles are watched affects their behavior. For all I know this could point to our thoughts genuinely affecting reality...or maybe not. I think it's more likely I just misunderstand quantum physics, but I guess that's a possibility. If we could do it, why couldn't a single, powerful, universe-controlling mind do it?
*So long as we assume the god is not omnibenevolent, or is flawed in some way, or ignorant about the universe, or has some lack of understanding about humanity or something, what better way would there be for such a god to communicate it's existence to humanity than through our own instincts? Our species does tend to veer towards believing in something we call a god, some mysterious ruling intelligence. As an atheist, at least I get the impulse to imagine something like a god exists anyway now and then.
That's about the best I got. I got nothing for the omnibenevolent, all-knowing god of many of the traditional religions...but a kind of powerful, but flawed intelligence? That's another story.
Note that I consider the possibility that we're part of a computer simulation to be a higher likelihood than the above...but I wouldn't call the creators of such a computer simulation gods.
The language and premise of the opening post---attack defend convince oppose debate argue----reveals a mind set and motivation and intention. It is one of conflict, contention, discord and fighting; and not peace, harmony and unity. It is win-lose instead of win-win.
I see the thread as kind of useful. We can see how the other side views our side.
Ok, since you all keep insisting here's my Best Shot for God.
First off, let's establish that there IS a god. There must be one one, because, no matter how the atheists fight on this one, and no matter how much pre-Big Bang quantum Foam, Boson field and numerical potential is pushed back in time, Something had to start the whole thing off.
Somebody had to decide to flip the switch - and that someone flipped it.
How much did this Cosmic mind direct the universe thereafter? Well, them thar Ay -the-yist perfessers say that there are natural explanations for galaxies, gravity, even life, but the fact is, it sure looks like a Cosmic Mind was behind it all.
Same with Abiogenesis, evolution and human evolution. It is just so improbable that the primal soup just happened to work out how to replicate, how something as amazingly complex and ...designed..(there, I've said it ) to do what it does -and so elegantly ...designed (there, I've said it again! ) to do it for everything from seaweed to Seabees - could happen by a combination of natural processes. it requires a superior intellect to do all that. The fact is that I/D and I/C may not be science, it may not even be supported by the evidence - but it is true.
A Cosmic intellect. Which is why we call it God, and not natural physical law. It thinks, it plans and it created everything. Sorta..
So what sorta god is it? I mean - which god? Well, in some ways, it doesn't matter since, if there is a god, there is a god and asking 'which one' only matters if you are really asking 'which religion?'. And accepting that there is a god doesn't need one to believe in any particular religion.
But then, the final bit of the evolutionary puzzle - the human mind. Ok, dolphins and dogs and even starlings can organize to gang up on prey or victims, and the problem solving of dogs, squirrels and rats is remarkable. But there is NOTHING like the reasoning ability of man, except Women whose reasoning processes can be even more amazing sometimes
Cut to chase - the answer is obvious folks -God tweaked higher the animal -primate, in fact - brain because he wanted to talk to us. He tweaked Lucy's brain, thumb and legs to turn it from an arboreal ape to a traveliin' man, man.
At this stage, let me deal with the problem of life on other planets. It is no problem at all If He (sorry lassies, merely a Convention) can create the conditions for life here, he can do it anywhere he wants to. It only makes a difference if it is seen to conflict with the Bible account, and I'll be getting to that later .
So, given that He planned, designed and executed all this because he wanted to communicate with the human mind, what did he communicate? Ethics of course, and higher thought. and - yes -science (I'll be getting to that, too ) but mostly, through personal experience through meditation, contact through contemplation and mystical perception through prayer. Prayer isn't about "Please let my dad give me a rocket powered snowboard for Christmas" or "Please let my bosses' mistress cut his throat so I can get his job." -and it never has been. It is about a personal, mental - I should say Spiritual - relation with Him.
And that works for all religions or none. And I could leave it there with irreligious theism. but there is a question of IF one religion is the true one - which one?
I think we can skip over the suggestion that "Awk" -fellow made - wherever he's got to - about gods we used to believe in and ones we never thought of. This God is arranging things as he planned before he even pressed the button and, if we no longer believe in Osiris or Mithras, it is for a very good reason. The only contenders are the present religions. And frankly, while the eastern religions are fun and often quite deep and useful, there is only One real Contender on offer.
Biblegod.
That Bible is the result of mental contact with the Cosmic Mind. Of course it isn't to be taken literally, even apart from heavy elements proving that it has to be done over billions of years not a week, and even if the tower of Babel, the extinction of Tyre (it still exists) and the Flood are not borne out by the evidence, it is the best written revelation of God there is - Pentateuch, Bible or Quran.
The bits that are not factual are of course metaphorical. We know that. And the answer to why God would 'reveal' tall stories was discovered (probably by Inspiration) by some posting genius whose name escapes me. But it came out of a debate with that goddless dolt Transponder.
"The evidence is against a total flood ever happening. And why would He need a flood at all? He'd just delete all humans and start again with Noah instead of Adam."
"But what lesson would that send? It wasn't the wiping out of humanity that was important, but the lesson and the covenant at the end."
"But then why not just put into the head of Moses or whoever wrote the Genesis and Exodus the vision (visions are so damn' important in religion) of the Flood in order to order to send Moses and humanity the message - through their believing that it happened?"
"Why not indeed?"
And there you are, folks, A Metaphorically true Bible is NOT an Excuse, but God's method of teaching us. You see, God's nature doesn't change, nor his plan. That plan existed in his head (or whatever he's got) before he even jerked the lever. It is only half the truth to say that Plan is evolving - that implies changing. It is more (significantly like the Big Bang ) An "Unfolding" of his plan.
So Cherry picking the Bible is not wrong, it is an irrelevant objection, because the WHOLE Bible is relevant, true or not. "True or not" is in fact irrelevant. What it teaches us spiritually is relevant. Atheist and materialist skeptics will NEVER be able to see this because they think "Concrete"
Now, I don't claim to be a Bible authority or history expert, but I do know that the Bible is either true factually (as a sort of historical anchor to hold the story/message in place -and doesn't that happen with New York and Spiderman? and let's have another one, son ) or is true metaphorically.
God does want us to use our minds -the mind he gave us - to discover which bits are true (Jesus existed and died on the cross) or metaphorical (he did not walk on water, find a shekel in a fish or ride on TWO donkeys - yes, there are mistakes and inventions as well as visions and reliable knowledge) and which are..intended to send a spiritual teaching. So the mercy and tolerance of the woman taken in adultery is True, and never mind that they can't decide whether it goes in Luke or John.
So we discover more -about the universe, the history of life and humanity, and about what in the Bible is true and what is metaphor. And where this will lead us on our journey of spiritual discovery and what part the Other religions of the Book will play in that, I don't claim to know.
But I know who does.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-27-2017 at 07:52 AM..
Reason: just a little purtying up of the writin'
Ok, since you all keep insisting here's my Best Shot for God.
First off, let's establish that there IS a god. There must be one one, because, no matter how the atheists fight on this one, and no matter how much pre-Big Bang quantum Foam, Boson field and numerical potential is pushed back in time, Something had to start the whole thing off.
Somebody had to decide to flip the switch - and that someone flipped it.
How much did this Cosmic mind direct the universe thereafter? Well, them thar Ay -the-yist perfessers say that there are natural explanations for galaxies, gravity, even life, but the fact is, it sure looks like a Cosmic Mind was behind it all.
Same with Abiogenesis, evolution and human evolution. It is just so improbable that the primal soup just happened to work out how to replicate, how something as amazingly complex and ...designed..(there, I've said it ) to do what it does -and so elegantly ...designed (there, I've said it again! ) to do it for everything from seaweed to Seabees - could happen by a combination of natural processes. it requires a superior intellect to do all that. The fact is that I/D and I/C may not be science, it may not even be supported by the evidence - but it is true.
A Cosmic intellect. Which is why we call it God, and not natural physical law. It thinks, it plans and it created everything. Sorta..
So what sorta god is it? I mean - which god? Well, in some ways, it doesn't matter since, if there is a god, there is a god and asking 'which one' only matters if you are really asking 'which religion?'. And accepting that there is a god doesn't need one to believe in any particular religion.
But then, the final bit of the evolutionary puzzle - the human mind. Ok, dolphins and dogs and even starlings can organize to gang up on prey or victims, and the problem solving of dogs, squirrels and rats is remarkable. But there is NOTHING like the reasoning ability of man, except Women whose reasoning processes can be even more amazing sometimes
Cut to chase - the answer is obvious folks -God tweaked higher the animal -primate, in fact - brain because he wanted to talk to us. He tweaked Lucy's brain, thumb and legs to turn it from an arboreal ape to a traveliin' man, man.
At this stage, let me deal with the problem of life on other planets. It is no problem at all If He (sorry lassies, merely a Convention) can create the conditions for life here, he can do it anywhere he wants to. It only makes a difference if it is seen to conflict with the Bible account, and I'll be getting to that later .
So, given that He planned, designed and executed all this because he wanted to communicate with the human mind, what did he communicate? Ethics of course, and higher thought. and - yes -science (I'll be getting to that, too ) but mostly, through personal experience through meditation, contact through contemplation and mystical perception through prayer. Prayer isn't about "Please let my dad give me a rocket powered snowboard for Christmas" or "Please let my bosses' mistress cut his throat so I can get his job." -and it never has been. It is about a personal, mental - I should say Spiritual - relation with Him.
And that works for all religions or none. And I could leave it there with irreligious theism. but there is a question of IF one religion is the true one - which one?
I think we can skip over the suggestion that "Awk" -fellow made - wherever he's got to - about gods we used to believe in and ones we never thought of. This God is arranging things as he planned before he even pressed the button and, if we no longer believe in Osiris or Mithras, it is for a very good reason. The only contenders are the present religions. And frankly, while the eastern religions are fun and often quite deep and useful, there is only One real Contender on offer.
Biblegod.
That Bible is the result of mental contact with the Cosmic Mind. Of course it isn't to be taken literally, even apart from heavy elements proving that it has to be done over billions of years not a week, and even if the tower of Babel, the extinction of Tyre (it still exists) and the Flood are not borne out by the evidence, it is the best written revelation of God there is - Pentateuch, Bible or Quran.
The bits that are not factual are of course metaphorical. We know that. And the answer to why God would 'reveal' tall stories was discovered (probably by Inspiration) by some posting genius whose name escapes me. But it came out of a debate with that goddless dolt Transponder.
"The evidence is against a total flood ever happening. And why would He need a flood at all? He'd just delete all humans and start again with Noah instead of Adam."
"But what lesson would that send? It wasn't the wiping out of humanity that was important, but the lesson and the covenant at the end."
"But then why not just put into the head of Moses or whoever wrote the Genesis and Exodus the vision (visions are so damn' important in religion) of the Flood in order to order to send Moses and humanity the message - through their believing that it happened?"
"Why not indeed?"
And there you are, folks, A Metaphorically true Bible is NOT an Excuse, but God's method of teaching us. You see, God's nature doesn't change, nor his plan. That plan existed in his head (or whatever he's got) before he even jerked the lever. It is only half the truth to say that Plan is evolving - that implies changing. It is more (significantly like the Big Bang ) An "Unfolding" of his plan.
So Cherry picking the Bible is not wrong, it is an irrelevant objection, because the WHOLE Bible is relevant, true or not. "True or not" is in fact irrelevant. What it teaches us spiritually is relevant. Atheist and materialist skeptics will NEVER be able to see this because they think "Concrete"
Now, I don't claim to be a Bible authority or history expert, but I do know that the Bible is either true factually (as a sort of historical anchor to hold the story/message in place -and doesn't that happen with New York and Spiderman? and let's have another one, son ) or is true metaphorically.
God does want us to use our minds -the mind he gave us - to discover which bits are true (Jesus existed and died on the cross) or metaphorical (he did not walk on water, find a shekel in a fish or ride on TWO donkeys - yes, there are mistakes and inventions as well as visions and reliable knowledge) and which are..intended to send a spiritual teaching. So the mercy and tolerance of the woman taken in adultery is True, and never mind that they can't decide whether it goes in Luke or John.
So we discover more -about the universe, the history of life and humanity, and about what in the Bible is true and what is metaphor. And where this will lead us on our journey of spiritual discovery and what part the Other religions of the Book will play in that, I don't claim to know.
But I know who does.
I forgot to ask that you bring it when not stoned.
1. Imagine (for a minute or two) that you are a Christian,
Imagine that you're in a Debate Online (City-Data.com, Religion And Spirituality Forum)
This Debate is on "The Existence Of God".
What argument(s) (as far as Evidence For The Existence Of God is concerned), would you present to the "Opposition" in your attempt(s) to "convince" them that there are Sound reasons to believe in God's existence?
Part 2 (This Is for the Christians to address):
2. Imagine for a moment or two that you're an Atheist
Imagine that you're Online (City-Data.com probably). You're in the same Debate as presented in
Part 1 above.
What argument(s) would you present to the "Opposition", in your attempt(s) to "convince" them that there are Good reasons to not believe or to suspend belief (in God's existence)....until convincing evidence shows up?
Sincere arguments (and opinions) from both sides will be appreciated.
No, I am not going to get involved in defending anything. However, I think it is a good idea. If I had enough time to concentrate on this topic, maybe I would join the discussion.
I teach management and HR courses at a university.
The research paper for the course follows the same requirement. I designed it for the students to present a thesis statement, present three supporting points, AND three opposing points. This approach promotes critical thinking and analytical skills.
The majority of the students find it very difficult to write a paper with such approach. During the class we discuss topics and I ask students to argue against a point they agree or support. Some actually refuse because they find it very difficult.
At the end of the class most students recognize that this approach helped them open their minds more. They say it is difficult but very valuable.
The challenge is if you are so sure your views are so correct or true, why are you afraid of perhaps finding out that some things you believe are wrong? If that is the case, then admit it.
If you are happy with your beliefs, that is no problem but are you honest enough to say you like your views and are happy with them and you don't want to deal with opposing views. To me that is fine also.
"I was a Christian and all the reasons why slowly were debunked."
And they were "debunked" through the Christian life?
You'll have to define what you mean by Christian life. If you mean try and be the best version of yourself you can be then I think most people do that. Even the Bible has examples like the publican and the good Samaritan behaving rightly. Christians don't have the market cornered on goodness anymore than they do on elitism.
I'll give you an example of the debunking. I'll give you are more generic one and not one that is specific to The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania This one was a big one for me because I remember being in 4th grade and having this one drilled into my head during a book study. I agreed with it and decided that yes indeed the adults around me where telling the truth. I'm not attempting to say the Bible says the earth if flat (although I believe it points toward that). I'm saying it does not provide some smoking gun scientific evidence not available to people 2000 years ago. I typed it out here if you are interested: (skip italics if you don't care or just wave your hands in the air)
This doesn't fall under cognitive filter but cognitive somethingorother. I was on the Reddit message board and they were discussing someone's mom's failure to understand how the scripture in Isiah about the circle of the earth and how that showed the writer didn't understand the shape of the earth. He was getting kind of frustrated because he kept saying sphere not circle and she kept saying it was a circle. I was trying to follow what he was saying and I was just as lost as to what his point was as his mom was. I was wanting to see what they were saying and I could not. Someone mentioned the moon looking like a circle from the earth and it finally clicked. Oh, it's saying the earth is round like a plate not round like a ball.
Here's what I think happened. That scripture was presented to me as a child as proof positive that the bible had advanced scientific knowledge not available at the time. In the early 70s they already knew the earth was a sphere so when I would read circle in that scripture my mind would see the earth as a 3d ball. Every time those guys said circle my mind automatically switched it to match what we know about the earth. Sphere actually seemed weird and out of place.
It's pretty clever of them to take a scripture that could be used to disprove the bible and specifically put mental blocks around it so when a person encounters the correct argument they cannot see it. Even trying to argue it would probably result in the image of circle being the correct image being even further ingrained.
I do have testimony like some of the other posters on this board. I now believe that to be explainable phenom. Probably my best bet is to speak from that and hope to snag some other emotional reasoners.
Edit to add: Something strange about this thread is that people latched onto "defend" in the title and not "side". What is the purpose of "sides"?
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,
here's my Best Shot for God.
) to do it for everything from seaweed to Seabees - could happen by a combination of natural processes. it requires a superior intellect to do all that. The fact is that I/D and I/C may not be science, it may not even be supported by the evidence - but it is true.
.
That bad, was it?
