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On another forum in a galaxy far, far away, there was a Christian that I used to argue with all the time. Through are constant arguing, we actually became pretty good online friends ... and then just friends in the true sense of the word. We actually became rather close.
To be clear, when I answer questions like "are we guided" or "does prayer work?" I look what is going on around us. I do "levels and rows", not "this or that" and black and white."
Their is no god of the bible pointing his finger and moving stuff around. We would see those interactions. Praying for a lolly pop is an indicator of mental state. Because we are all people, many Atheist have red flag claims too.
The formulas we use to describe many of the event around us work. They work because of patterns in nature. Various methods that help a person Settle down ones brain work. That's where my lines of logic start. I don't start at anti religion or some imaginary god. I start at what we have around us that is real.
How many times can we say 'coincident" before its a less a valid claim to say "Just pure coincident". I heard that word like 8 times in a show about evolution in three and a half minutes. that doesn't mean 'god". But it means "something" is going on past "just us"
I also am not afraid to say at some point its not "pure coincident" because it gives theist wiggle room. Like you point out. "how the universe works" is truth. I don't care what "emotion" one is married to until they tell me that emotional need (or non meaning) is what we all should be doing.
Even if one were to argue that, "Aha! You disappeared from the forum thus keeping your friend and his wife together, so perhaps God is working to keep them together still," I would say no. While I'm sure his feelings for me were genuine, wanting to run off with me was only part of the issue. Sure, I would love to strut around and say, "Muahaha I'm so awesome that I overwhelmed a man's love for his wife," I can't and won't say that. It was quite obvious to me that whatever love they may have had had gone rather stale and my friend was desperate to get out of his marriage. If it hadn't been me, it would have been someone else -- and no doubt, sooner or later, there WILL be a someone else, someone who might not mind stealing a father away from his children. And "poof" goes all of my friend's nonsense about how God created that string of misfortunes so he could meet, and later marry, his soulmate.
Another explanation is that your friend was addicted to the IDEA of falling in love, which explains his narrative about how he met his wife, AND his falling for you mere months later. The bloom always wears off of cathexis, leaving whatever is REALLY there in terms of commitment.
Some people could fall in love with anyone who fits a template for some rescue narrative or a narrative where they're the hero or something or whatever. For awhile.
You sure did the right thing there ... even for yourself.
Not sure if this the right forum, but here goes --
I am an agnostic, but it seems to me in looking over my 63-years-so-far life, that is something is meant to be, achieving or getting it is easy, and if it not meant to be, there are obstacles put in my path.
To give an example of something bad: If I am about to go on a vacation, but then I have trouble getting time off, I have an unexpected large repair bill the week before I am set to go (meaning less spending money), and then I develop a bad headache at the last minute, but I decide to go anyway -- I will end up having a lousy time and being sorry I went.
To give an example of something good: if I am just thinking about getting a puppy and on the way home from work the next day, I see a "Free Puppies" sign by a large cage with puppies in it, I fall in love with one of them, and she turns out to be the best non-human companion of my entire life.
So, do you thinks things like that are just coincidence or not?
P.S. The reason I asked for the opinions of atheists and agnostics is because it seems to me that many Christians say that Jesus/God is ALWAYS personally responsible for one's good luck or bad, and I personally just don't believe that.
Given the way the human mind works, the senses of vision and hearing, and the innumerable possible ways that a coincidence can be thought of (the multitude of ways to link two things, two events, an event and a thing, a part thing and event etc etc.) it would be very, very weird if coincidences never happened. On top of that, billions of non-coincidences happen in your life every day also. But you will pay no mind to the non-coincidences whatsoever. Its very easy to see something as a coincidence, and in fact the human brain, and monkey brains and other complex brains seek out patterns. Coincidences are one of those patterns, and only need a very loose definition to be included as such.
btw, Christians are just one of the ideologies out there. Atheists don't really define themselves in relation to Christians, any more than they define themselves in relation to Zoroastrians, native American religions, Muslims, Hindus etc. Its not relevant.
I meant it more of an illusion. I can't speak for him, but I think he meant more of a delusion. An illusion is there but it is something different than we think it is. "the face" in the fire is there its just not a human face. just as fire seems to be a "thing". The fire is not a "thing", it is a set of events. Simply put, Electrons settling down to a lower energy level releasing a photons.
hmm. it is that, but it is also a powerful metaphor, it even has a spirit as such, so maybe that should get thrown in there somewhere too
Another explanation is that your friend was addicted to the IDEA of falling in love, which explains his narrative about how he met his wife, AND his falling for you mere months later. The bloom always wears off of cathexis, leaving whatever is REALLY there in terms of commitment.
Some people could fall in love with anyone who fits a template for some rescue narrative or a narrative where they're the hero or something or whatever. For awhile.
You sure did the right thing there ... even for yourself.
"addiction", levels and rows here fits like a glove, "addiction" is more than guided, addictions decides how one interact with his/her surroundings.
"fits template", predictable ... means guided.
"right" or "wrong" is a matter of personal opinion. That in it self fits a template I understand and use to predict expressions of belief and/or behaviors often. Correctly making predictions means guided. at least not "unguided".
Their is no god of the bible pointing his finger and moving stuff around. We would see those interactions. Praying for a lolly pop is an indicator of mental state. Because we are all people, many Atheist have red flag claims too.
Well, I should clarify my point, I guess, because I really didn't do it in my original post. Sometimes my posts get too long and I just want to end them ... and not everything I meant to say gets said.
Thus ... I only used an incident with a Christian as an example and, because it involved a Christian, my example involved talking about a "god" doing the steering, controlling, and maneuvering.
However, that was ... well ... *ahem* coincidental. It just so happened to be the best example I could think of, and using an example was much easier than simply trying to explain everything straight-up like a textbook. (Gee, don't people like my awesome stories about my life, anyway? *sniff*)
We can just as easily toss out gods and religion and merely talk about fate, destiny, the currents of life, or whatever that "something" may be and we're still going to run into the same problem of 20/20 hindsight and placing more meaning on one group of coincidences because it led to something BIG while ignoring perhaps an even more amazing group of coincidences that led to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
The formulas we use to describe many of the event around us work. They work because of patterns in nature. Various methods that help a person Settle down ones brain work. That's where my lines of logic start. I don't start at anti religion or some imaginary god. I start at what we have around us that is real.
My point wasn't to be anti-religious, really, but to alert us to the fact that humans are pattern-forming creatures. Damn, but we are GOOD at it. Too good, in fact, because we see patterns where none exist quite often. I see this a lot when dealing with conspiracy theory loons LOL!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
How many times can we say 'coincident" before its a less a valid claim to say "Just pure coincident". I heard that word like 8 times in a show about evolution in three and a half minutes. that doesn't mean 'god". But it means "something" is going on past "just us"
Well, in terms of evolution, I really don't see anything all that astounding about the coincidences. Again, it only seems astounding because it led to humans, right? No one is oohing and aahing over the coincidences that led to cats or donkeys or tadpoles. No doubt there are planets elsewhere where evolution led to an intelligent species very different from us ... and that will have been a completely different chain of coincidences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
I also am not afraid to say at some point its not "pure coincident" because it gives theist wiggle room.
That's not the reason why I don't make the claim that it's not pure coincidence. In fact, I never even thought of that until you brought it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
Like you point out. "how the universe works" is truth. I don't care what "emotion" one is married to until they tell me that emotional need (or non meaning) is what we all should be doing.
The only point I will concede is that many times in my life it sure did feel like I was funneled somewhere through a chain of bizarre happenstances. Whenever you happen to be in the right place at the right time, especially if you weren't supposed to be there to begin with and a series of unforeseen events knocked your day off course, can really give the illusion that "something" is nudging, guiding, or even shoving you into a nexus point -- that point in time where those events converge into the final "this is what the whole day was about" super-prize.
And you think to yourself, "Wow, if I hadn't lost my keys I wouldn't have been 10 minutes late, and being 10 minutes late caused me to get into the accident with the dump truck, which allowed me to meet my insurance agent, whom I married 6 months later!"
yes, metaphors are powerful. So powerful, in fact that, if we do not lock our lines of logic in what we can observe the metaphor can mislead us.
Hmm. Can you give me an example? Because this seems to suggest to me to trust in appearances, in a way that i am uncomfortable with; when i know you mean to know them by their fruit, but i would just like for the diff to come out.
I could give an example after if you like; and i intentionally tip my hand here, notice. But i doubt i will need to.
Hmm. Can you give me an example? Because this seems to suggest to me to trust in appearances, in a way that i am uncomfortable with; when i know you mean to know them by their fruit, but i would just like for the diff to come out.
I could give an example after if you like; and i intentionally tip my hand here, notice. But i doubt i will need to.
yeah, you should be uncomfortable. I raced motocross in my day, we always said, if you aint "uncomfortable" you are going down. to a degree right? fear is a mind killer.
if the experiment is repeated by anybody, anywhere, no matter what they believe, that particular "appearance" is reality for us. Its the best we can do.
its ok to not trust what we know today, in fact, its a requirement for killing ignorance. we call it "education", the lesson of the cross.
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we call it "education", the lesson of the cross.
