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Claiming it is not a Belief does not make that so.
It IS a Belief.
Unless you have "objective facts", and can then declare knowledge....any determination or conclusion that is drawn without objective facts to back it up is, necessairly, a Belief.
Atheist, by definition (as per known experts at providing the meanings of words, such as Merriam-Webster)...is "A person who believes that God does not exist".
Atheism is, "The DOCTRINE that there is no Deity".
Atheism is based on a Logical Fallacy (Argument From Ignorance)...that because one has no evidence for the existence of God(s) that it is reasonable to make a determination that God(s) do not exist.
Of course...there is no way to check a known Universe that is at least 93 Billion light years across for any God(s).
So...the best one can ever have is speculation...and thus "Belief".
Then, you have generic perceptions of God (such as in Pantheism) that have been held by untold hundres of millions, that DO objectively exist, an Atheism must dismiss.
In essence...Atheism is an ignorant and bogus Belief that no Gods exist...using either a flawed "no evidence" premise, outright dismissal of Generic Gods that are known to exist, or both.
Not the case. You must have missed the conversation I had with Eusie about this.
I quoted about 10 dictionaries stating that atheism is "a lack of faith/belief in a God."
So essentially, your whole argument is based of a falsely assumed premise.
I don't know any atheists who claim to know that there is no God. Most atheists wouldn't say that because they'd be violating the same train of thought that lead them to atheism in the first place.
Let's clear this up:
Let's pretend that you're correct for one moment and atheism means to not believe in God. Most of us here who call ourselves atheists are not atheists in that case and you are arguing against a strawman (logical fallacy btw.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa
Belief = Bayesian probability
Bayesian probability is not all or nothing
Its possible to be pretty sure but not certain
Either you know or you believe
If you know then there are 2 possibilities
You know God exists
You know God doesnt exist
If you believe then there are 3 possibilities
You believe God exists
You believe God doesnt exist
You have no opinion one way or the other (50/50) (agnostic)
This seems to miss the whole point. What about if you haven't yet seen evidence to allay your doubts?
You don't know God doesn't exist and you don't believe that God doesn't exist.
This is not agnosticism. Agnosticism KNOWS that no one could know if a god exists (a truth claim.)
This is atheism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
How do you know that? That is, at it's most basic level, an assumption. Simply stating it does not make it true.
I can name a number of different moral positions that people can disagree on. Subjective morality seems to be the most logical conclusion to draw from this.
I don't know any atheists who claim to know that there is no God. Most atheists wouldn't say that because they'd be violating the same train of thought that lead them to atheism in the first place.
Have you spent ANY amount of time reading the daily posts on here by certain folks? You don't know of any that claim no God exists? Really?
So, I wanted to create a thread in order to dispel a couple myths about atheism.
1. Atheism is not a belief or lifestyle and can not be treated like a belief or lifestyle.
2. It follows that belief-based and lifestyle-based decisions made by an atheist are not pursuant to atheism.
I am making this thread because I've seen a ridiculously high number of theists saying things like "Atheism is a faith in no God" and making claims against atheism as though it were a violent, hypocritical belief set.
An atheist could be a violent, genocide supporting warlord or an atheist could be a pacifist who likes gardening and donating to poor children. Neither lifestyle is because the person is an atheist.
If you're an atheist, I'd be obliged to hear your thoughts on this.
If you're a theist and disagree, please provide a detailed explanation.
Right, this is an interesting development I heard recently. The demands of the ACLU and similar humanist and atheist individuals have demanded that prayers not be offered in school because it violates their rights to freedom of (from) religion. The interesting turnabout is that this demand itself establishes atheism as a faith itself, a faith in existential nothingness. Because this itself is a faith and one in extreme minority in the USA, then asking not to hear a prayer would be honoring their faith in nothing or no God. The courts, if choosing to honor this, may begin reversing this atheist practice of denying public prayer and denying school leaders from sharing their faith with school children in the public, tax-supported schools.
I like this turn of events and even as a former-atheist-turned-back-to-Christian, I think more prayer and Biblical priniciples in school would generate fewer genocidal warlords and more garden pacifists who donate to poor children.
So then what's the difference between an agnostic and an atheist?
Agnostics declare there may be a god, they just don't know who or what. Atheists claim there is no God.
The Bible actually states that there is no such thing as an atheist. Everyone KNOWS that there is SOMETHING that created it all...they just suppress the belief because they prefer to live their own lives of sin.
Belief = Bayesian probability
Bayesian probability is not all or nothing
Its possible to be pretty sure but not certain
Either you know or you believe
If you know then there are 2 possibilities
You know God exists
You know God doesnt exist
If you believe then there are 3 possibilities
You believe God exists
You believe God doesnt exist
You have no opinion one way or the other (50/50) (agnostic)
No, it's not trinary; actually for belief there is a continuum of probabilities from zero to 99.999%.
Most agnostic atheists believe the probability to be very low, in the single digits at best.
In my experience agnostics who are "50/50" are usually asking the wrong questions, they are considering the probability for the particular deity of their religion of origin, rather than the probability of ANY deity.
There is also the nuance that some people consider agnosticism to be about the unknown, while others go further and consider deities to be unknowable and therefore a matter of indifference. If god is unknowable than he is not actionable or relevant. If god is knowable then at least you have the potential to search for god and perhaps find him. But here again ... once you start thinking like that you start begging the question and are usually looking for a specific deity that you are predisposed to believe in.
Have you spent ANY amount of time reading the daily posts on here by certain folks? You don't know of any that claim no God exists? Really?
I meant I don't KNOW any. I'm sure they exist, but I don't know them (not I don't know OF them). I'm providing the actual definition of atheism and this is the definition that is pushed by many atheistic groups and philosophers (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, American Atheists, Christopher Hitchens, etc.) You won't catch any of them saying "I know there is no God" because they don't know and they don't claim to know. You will see them all saying that they don't see a reason to believe in a God (lack of faith) given the evidence we have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Agnostics declare there may be a god, they just don't know who or what. Atheists claim there is no God.
The Bible actually states that there is no such thing as an atheist. Everyone KNOWS that there is SOMETHING that created it all...they just suppress the belief because they prefer to live their own lives of sin.
No, not the case. Agnostics claim no one could know if there's a God or not. Atheists have a lack of faith in God (aka, I don't know if there's a God and I have yet to see evidence to allay my doubts)
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Agnostic used to be the middle ground. Although the claim 'we can never know" needs some clarification or its a blind faith statement. Now with discoveries like gravity waves the only thing an atheist can say is "no deity". Then we fall back on the definition of deity.
Some will argue against formal rituals. But that gets into a different set of issues. Do some people need rituals to help them through a life? do some need more than others? Nobody should be oppressing others with a set of rituals. that we all agree on.
Act like a reasonable person, get treated like a reasonable person.
I think most people think this way.
Agnostics declare there may be a god, they just don't know who or what. Atheists claim there is no God.
The Bible actually states that there is no such thing as an atheist. Everyone KNOWS that there is SOMETHING that created it all...they just suppress the belief because they prefer to live their own lives of sin.
Here again you are adhering to a muddled understanding of both agnosticism and atheism in an attempt to find a comfort zone for yourself. (A)gnosticism (knowledge claims) and (A)theism (belief claims) vary independently of each other, though they influence and inform each other. They are NOT mutually exclusive, despite that a significant uninformed minority of people will thoughtlessly claim that they are.
As to atheists saying "there is no god", that is usually a verbal shorthand that reflects a high degree of confidence (usually about the particular deity YOU are claiming, which carries a much greater burden of proof then just the generic concept of a deity or deities) that the deity doesn't exist. But press such a person (you know, what you would do if you really cared to understand what we unbelievers actually think instead of what you'd prefer to think that we think) and you'll find that they are not really literally claiming 100% knowledge of the non-existence of any and all gods.
Please stop willfully misconstruing these terms. You have been schooled about it enough times. While even a few atheists who haven't really thought things through philosophically might agree with you, it is not accurate or nuanced to suggest that agnosticism and atheism are mutually exclusive.
After all, you are a gnostic theist (not gnostic in the sense of the old gnostic heresy, but in the sense above -- claiming to KNOW your god exists). I would suppose you wouldn't claim that a gnostic is different than a theist, and that if you KNOW god exists you can't BELIEVE he exists. Am I not right?
No, it's not trinary; actually for belief there is a continuum of probabilities from zero to 99.999%.
That is what I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa
Belief = Bayesian probability
Bayesian probability is not all or nothing
Its possible to be pretty sure but not certain
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