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You may notice that I said nothing about God's response, though. I doubt he would feel very threatened or perturbed by anyone. My comments pertained solely to the atheist coming face-to-face with God for the first time and starting out the conversation by being snarky. Basically, all I was saying that was if God actually is real, and really did create a universe as magnificent as ours, He may very well be just a tad more intelligent than the smart-alek standing in front of Him. Some people obviously have a really hard time being proven wrong, and that kind of person was the kind of person I was describing. You've got to know when to back off, and some people just don't. (Not all of them are atheists. )
I don't know though. If you died and found out that Moloch was waiting to punish you for not burning your firstborn alive, would you reign it in and try to be nice? Just because he's powerful and can do bad things to you, does that automatically make you wrong about your conviction that burning your children alive is a bad thing?
Just because a being, even a God is powerful, doesn't make them right, does it? And for someone like me, why should I refrain from giving him my opinion. I am about to be consigned to the fires of Hell for eternity ( depending on exactly whose concept of God we are dealing with here), doesn't make a lot of sense for me to try to suck up at that point does it?
I don't know though. If you died and found out that Moloch was waiting to punish you for not burning your firstborn alive, would you reign it in and try to be nice? Just because he's powerful and can do bad things to you, does that automatically make you wrong about your conviction that burning your children alive is a bad thing?
Just because a being, even a God is powerful, doesn't make them right, does it? And for someone like me, why should I refrain from giving him my opinion. I am about to be consigned to the fires of Hell for eternity ( depending on exactly whose concept of God we are dealing with here), doesn't make a lot of sense for me to try to suck up at that point does it?
-NoCapo
I'd assume that if God (my God or Moloch or whoever) was smart enough to be God, I probably ought to at least hear Him out before jumping down His throat. Maybe this is a dumb analogy; I don't know. At any rate, it's the best I can come up with off the top of my head. When a parent takes his or her six-month old baby in to the doctor for vaccinations, the baby doesn't have a clue what's going on. He only knows that his mother, who feeds him, rocks him to sleep and is there at his side the instant he begins to cry in the night has handed him over to someone he's never seen before who inflicts physical pain upon him. His mother does absolutely nothing to stop this from happening. She certainly isn't powerless to intervene. What's her problem? What the baby doesn't know is that his mother does have a reason for allowing this seemingly gratuitous pain to be inflicted on him when he hasn't done anything at all to deserve it. When he's older and is capable of understanding, she may explain to him why. But at the time, he doesn't understand and he is incapable of understanding.
As a Christian, I believe that God's intelligence is so far beyond mine that I am incapable of understanding it. Yes, of course I'm bothered by the pain and suffering that goes on in the world. I'm just willing to acknowledge that I have a lot to learn before I'm in a position to start judging my Creator as being evil or sadistic.
I'm really not trying to change anybody's mind here. Trust me, even if I'm a theist, I'm smart enough not to bother trying to do that. I merely stated my opinion and really don't have a whole lot more to say on the subject.
I'd ask the obvious question - why did he made me an atheist?
Ironically, your answer here actually supports Stephens Fry's perspective. You are making the assumption that if we say exactly what we think to god, he wouldn't like it therefore we should keep quiet about it - or else. In fact if there is a god, we have no idea how he would respond to Stephens statements. For all we know he might have the utmost respect for Stephen saying his mind. He made Stephen didn't he? What does he have to apologise about? Maybe Stephen is his golden boy who certainly uses his god given brain more than most. Your response is a result of your conditioning with what you imagine god to be. God might for all we know send all those who don't speak their mind to the corner of shame.
I think this actually matches up with what we know of God.
1. God gave humans free will
2. God seems to allow any number of weird religions freedom to exist without getting struck by lightning
3. We know from Christian/Jewish scripture, that God frequently tests followers, therefore it follows that God wants followers that can debate, engage, and yes even argue with God.
If I met God, I'd ask him... can I become a Reaper? Not a Grim Reaper, one of the other kinds (there are Reapers for all aspects of existence, such as Birth and Nature). I want a cool job!
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 02-11-2015 at 08:01 PM..
You may notice that I said nothing about God's response, though. I doubt he would feel very threatened or perturbed by anyone. My comments pertained solely to the atheist coming face-to-face with God for the first time and starting out the conversation by being snarky. Basically, all I was saying that was if God actually is real, and really did create a universe as magnificent as ours, He may very well be just a tad more intelligent than the smart-alek standing in front of Him. Maybe I should give Him some credit for knowing what He was doing, even if it didn't make sense to me. Some people obviously have a really hard time being proven wrong, and that kind of person was the kind of person I was describing. You've got to know when to back off, and some people just don't. (Not all of them are atheists. )
Haha, well you may be right there. On the other hand I know a few extremely bright people who have no common sense, what's to say god himself isn't something of that ilk? He's probably just making it up as he goes along like the rest of us, who knows? He certainly seems to have made lots of mistakes that's for sure. But to be serious lets say there is a god who created the universe. The very idea that he's going to give a flying hoot about what Stephen Fry has to say at the Pearly Gates is beyond hysterical when he's probably got better things to do like working out how he's going to orchestrate the collision of Andromeda and the Milky Way in 4 billion years or how to stop humans getting a grip on quantum mechanics before they crack his code of life the universe and everything (42).
Haha, well you may be right there. On the other hand I know a few extremely bright people who have no common sense, what's to say god himself isn't something of that ilk? He's probably just making it up as he goes along like the rest of us, who knows? He certainly seems to have made lots of mistakes that's for sure. But to be serious lets say there is a god who created the universe. The very idea that he's going to give a flying hoot about what Stephen Fry has to say at the Pearly Gates is beyond hysterical when he's probably got better things to do like working out how he's going to orchestrate the collision of Andromeda and the Milky Way in 4 billion years or how to stop humans getting a grip on quantum mechanics before they crack his code of life the universe and everything (42).
42!LOL I liked Katz's point. The smart aleck atheist . . . when faced with the reason that our reality exists . . . best be the truly smart man who "knows when to hold them and knows when to fold them."
I just remember my dad saying to me, "Kathryn, it's not what you're saying; it's how you're saying it." Or, "You've got to learn how to disagree without being disagreeable." Civility never did anybody any harm. Don't misunderstand... I believe God gave us our brains for a reason, and He expects us to use them. I was always taught (especially by my dad) that questioning is okay, that doubting is okay. Growing up, I was never once made to feel that God was going to strike me down if I didn't believe everything I heard someone say about Him from the pulpit.
Is a supposedly omniscient god going to be fooled by sucking up to it? I guess the answer depends on which sort of god we're making up for this hypothetical. No reason to think that people who assume god would be impressed by being civil are any more or less correct than anyone else. But that's the fun of hypotheticals like these. We all get to make up whatever god we want, kinda like religion in general.
I like Stephen Fry, very funny and intelligent guy, but being a fan of Norwich City i have to wonder.
Maybe God will answer Stephen with ....... How could your mind be so corrupt that you think i would do such a thing, if the best of you lot down there on earth would never consider doing such a thing, why would you accuse me of such a damnable thing?.
Then Stephen asks....... Why did you allow it then ?.
My comments pertained solely to the atheist coming face-to-face with God for the first time and starting out the conversation by being snarky.
I obviously have no idea what it would really be like to meet God "face-to-face" (assuming there is a "god" in any traditional sense at all), but, in all seriousness - no, really, I'm going to be totally serious here - if God presents Herself in a way that I experience as "person-like", then I probably would start off the conversation by being just a wee bit snarky. Furthermore, if God truly is loving and intelligent, then I would argue that my approach would be the best approach. Why? Because it would be, for me, the most honest approach, and if God, of all people, can't appreciate an honest, heartfelt reaction, who can? I wouldn't act rude because I would not be angry. I would be puzzled, and I love a good puzzle, so I'd actually be in a pretty good mood in anticipation of finally achieving some clarity on some deep questions. I'd be relishing the opportunity to ask some challenging questions - including Fry's questions - and I'd be expecting some really damn good answers. So, yeah, I might be just a wee bit snarky - but all in good fun, unless I didn't like the answers.
I'm assuming that I'd be satisfied with the answers, and me and God would be chillin' by the poolside, or wherever, but if Her answers led me to think She was cruel, stupid, and insensitive, then I'm afraid the needle on my snarky-o-meter would start inching toward the red-zone. I'm not sure what would come of me at that point, but I'd push ahead, trying to remain as self-aware and honest as I could possibly be because what would be the point of anything less than total honesty in the presence of God? If I'm upset with Her answers, I might as well express my feelings because She's going to know anyway, right?
As I see it, meeting God would not be like meeting a famous human celebrity. If I met Angelina Jolie, I probably couldn't help being a bit star-struck. She wouldn't know me, and I'd want to make a good impression. God would already know me - presumably far better than I know myself - so there is no point in trying to make a good impression. Logically, I'd have no good choice other than to be true to my slightly snarky self.
Oh...darn...I just noticed that KC beat me to the punch. I coulda saved myself a bunch of time and just said: "Yeah...ditto what KC said!"
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 02-12-2015 at 06:57 AM..
As a Christian, I believe that God's intelligence is so far beyond mine that I am incapable of understanding it. Yes, of course I'm bothered by the pain and suffering that goes on in the world. I'm just willing to acknowledge that I have a lot to learn before I'm in a position to start judging my Creator as being evil or sadistic.
To continue your analogy, if the 6 month old weeps and wails at the seemingly gratuitous pain, how is that different from what Fry did in the interview? What is your response as a parent -- to take offense and cast the child out the window to teach him a lesson? Or do you love him anyway? Do you comfort him and thus communicate as best you can that you have his best interests at heart and will explain it someday when he is able to understand?
A 6 month old child is simply being honest about its perceptions and feelings. Fry was doing no less. Neither one should have anything to fear from a god worth worshipping, and the idea that one must walk on eggshells lest one be impertinent, is in itself telling of the sort of god we think we worship.
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On the other hand I know a few extremely bright people who have no common sense, what's to say god himself isn't something of that ilk? He's probably just making it up as he goes along like the rest of us, who knows? He certainly seems to have made lots of mistakes that's for sure. But to be serious lets say there is a god who created the universe. The very idea that he's going to give a flying hoot about what Stephen Fry has to say at the Pearly Gates is beyond hysterical when he's probably got better things to do like working out how he's going to orchestrate the collision of Andromeda and the Milky Way in 4 billion years or how to stop humans getting a grip on quantum mechanics before they crack his code of life the universe and everything (42).
LOL I liked Katz's point. The smart aleck atheist . . . when faced with the reason that our reality exists . . . best be the truly smart man who "knows when to hold them and knows when to fold them."
