Christian morality: an atheist's point of view (paradise, hell, America)
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I think religion and morality is both a complicated and simple topic. It's complicated because moral actions aren't always clearly defined and because there are some very gray areas even when you iron out the definition of morality. It’s not simply black and white but can have many shades of gray.
It's simple because although there are shades of gray, most accepted definitions of morality have a lot of obvious black and white components. Random murder or donations to charity for example. While it might not be clear in some situations what is the more moral action, it is pretty clear to me that the Bible is not in any way a good instruction book for living a moral life.
Defining Morality
I think it's very reasonable to sum up morality as something that creates the most positive impact on a person or people while having the least amount of negative impact on them. This goes for both physical and mental benefit/harm. So I would say robbing someone on the street so you can buy your niece a birthday gift is immoral. The negative of the person robbed certainly outweighs the positive of getting a new PlayStation. On the grayer side of things would be imposing an exceptionally harsh punishment on one criminal to send a message to the others as a deterrent for future crimes. Anything where you have to rely on what may or may not happen in the future as a result of the action tends to be less clear cut. It's one reason why the American nuclear bombings of Japan are often debated morally.
Then you have some Christian fundamentalists who will argue that morality is whatever God says it is. Basically, actions are not moral in themselves but only moral because God says they are. This argument means that if God appeared tomorrow and said slavery is now moral then it would suddenly be ok to own people. There would be no real need for this however as God already thinks slavery is ok according to the Bible. It’s just cognitive dissonance, social pressure or simply not reading the book that causes many Christians to agree that it is not.
But there are good things in the Bible!
When their moral standards are questioned then often I hear Christians bring up the golden rule, the Ten Commandments or some cheery picked quote from Jesus. Sure there are some good things in the Bible but there are some good things in many things that are generally accepted as bad. Often criminal organizations will donate money to charities for good PR but I certainly don't consider outlaw motorcycle gangs to have a net positive impact on society.
Most of the good stuff is cherry picked from various parts of the book. You'll be told all about the Ten Commandments. However they'll leave out that only 3 of the 10 are actual laws with many obvious actions left out of the commandments. Most of the others are God expressing its insecurities. It’s not very often you hear them bring up the other 603 commandments either.
If you try to point out all of the disgusting immoral things said in the Old Testament you'll be told that it's irrelevant because the New Testament replaces it. Of course the Old Testament is still relevant somehow when they want to use the Ten Commandments. It can be dismissed or used as evidence at the convenience of the believer. Oh and that part of the Bible where Jesus states that he has not come to replace the writings of the Old Testament? Just ignore that too.
The golden rule is another favorite. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Not a bad rule if most Christians actually followed it. It seems to go out the window when gay rights, women's right, secular opinions or opposing religions are concerned. It also does not take into consideration that some people would like to be treated in ways that most other would not. Christianity can hardly take credit for the golden rule though as it exists in some form in almost every religion and in cultures that predates the Bible as well.
Without belief in God there can be no morality
I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen a Christian state that without God there can be no morality. That atheists should just be doing whatever they want because in our world view there are no consequences. That the world would fall into total anarchy without the Bible. Yet it doesn't seem to happen. The world’s most secular first world countries consistently rank among the safest with the highest quality of life. This argument has always disturbed me as it suggests that the Bible is the only thing keeping them from murdering and stealing.
These same Christians also seem to miss that fact that we have laws which deter people from committing crimes. Our society has a system in which you can't just do whatever you want. Having laws that forbid murder and stealing is hardly something that the Bible invented. It existed in societies long before then.
Motivations to do good
Then we get to the part where Christians are motivated to do good deeds because they will be rewarded forever in an afterlife but punished forever if they do not perform to God's standards. This is supposed to be the big nail in the coffin for secularists. We don't have a forever paradise or eternal torture to guide us into making the right decisions. Well, according to how it supposedly works we should be thankful! For Christians it doesn't matter how horrible you've been throughout your life as long as you accept Jesus before you die. It also doesn't matter how noble you've been throughout your life if you have not accepted Jesus. You're one of the unfortunate ones born in the wrong part of the world where no one taught you about Jesus? Too bad! You burn anyway!
Most atheists believe that they have only one life. Why would we want to waste most of it in prison? Why would we want our friends and family to hate us because we're terrible people? We only have one shot at this so that seems like motivation to make the best of it.
I'm glad my belief doesn't include rewarding murderers and rapists with eternal paradise because they later decided to take advantage of God's insecurities. Nor does it include burning a good person alive forever just because they require evidence to believe in God. I believe I once heard Matt Dillahunty (correct me if I’m wrong) who compared the Christian world view as treating this life as a welcome mat to clean your feet before entering the real life which comes after. It's an accurate comparison and I can find little morality in a world view like that.
Without belief in God there can be no morality
I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen a Christian state that without God there can be no morality. That atheists should just be doing whatever they want because in our world view there are no consequences. That the world would fall into total anarchy without the Bible. Yet it doesn't seem to happen. The world’s most secular first world countries consistently rank among the safest with the highest quality of life. This argument has always disturbed me as it suggests that the Bible is the only thing keeping them from murdering and stealing.
Without the Bible or moral law, people operate according to their best self interests and desires. Most people wouldn't go out and commit murder because you have to be either demon possessed or mentally ill to take pleasure in hurting other people. Most people including myself will go out of their way to avoid violence, not cause it.
As far as stealing, I wonder just how well your argument would hold up if you remove the fear of consequences. For example, the fear of consequences was gone last week with the Missouri riots so American citizens robbed businesses in their own neighborhood, greedily taking away from hard working people.
If you think that is an isolated case then look at the problem of piracy. Millions of movies and songs have been downloaded without paying for it because there is no fear of consequence. That's stealing according to the copyright owners.
I think religion and morality is both a complicated and simple topic. It's complicated because moral actions aren't always clearly defined and because there are some very gray areas even when you iron out the definition of morality. It’s not simply black and white but can have many shades of gray.
It's simple because although there are shades of gray, most accepted definitions of morality have a lot of obvious black and white components. Random murder or donations to charity for example. While it might not be clear in some situations what is the more moral action, it is pretty clear to me that the Bible is not in any way a good instruction book for living a moral life.
Defining Morality
I think it's very reasonable to sum up morality as something that creates the most positive impact on a person or people while having the least amount of negative impact on them. This goes for both physical and mental benefit/harm. So I would say robbing someone on the street so you can buy your niece a birthday gift is immoral. The negative of the person robbed certainly outweighs the positive of getting a new PlayStation. On the grayer side of things would be imposing an exceptionally harsh punishment on one criminal to send a message to the others as a deterrent for future crimes. Anything where you have to rely on what may or may not happen in the future as a result of the action tends to be less clear cut. It's one reason why the American nuclear bombings of Japan are often debated morally.
Then you have some Christian fundamentalists who will argue that morality is whatever God says it is. Basically, actions are not moral in themselves but only moral because God says they are. This argument means that if God appeared tomorrow and said slavery is now moral then it would suddenly be ok to own people. There would be no real need for this however as God already thinks slavery is ok according to the Bible. It’s just cognitive dissonance, social pressure or simply not reading the book that causes many Christians to agree that it is not.
But there are good things in the Bible!
When their moral standards are questioned then often I hear Christians bring up the golden rule, the Ten Commandments or some cheery picked quote from Jesus. Sure there are some good things in the Bible but there are some good things in many things that are generally accepted as bad. Often criminal organizations will donate money to charities for good PR but I certainly don't consider outlaw motorcycle gangs to have a net positive impact on society.
Most of the good stuff is cherry picked from various parts of the book. You'll be told all about the Ten Commandments. However they'll leave out that only 3 of the 10 are actual laws with many obvious actions left out of the commandments. Most of the others are God expressing its insecurities. It’s not very often you hear them bring up the other 603 commandments either.
If you try to point out all of the disgusting immoral things said in the Old Testament you'll be told that it's irrelevant because the New Testament replaces it. Of course the Old Testament is still relevant somehow when they want to use the Ten Commandments. It can be dismissed or used as evidence at the convenience of the believer. Oh and that part of the Bible where Jesus states that he has not come to replace the writings of the Old Testament? Just ignore that too.
The golden rule is another favorite. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Not a bad rule if most Christians actually followed it. It seems to go out the window when gay rights, women's right, secular opinions or opposing religions are concerned. It also does not take into consideration that some people would like to be treated in ways that most other would not. Christianity can hardly take credit for the golden rule though as it exists in some form in almost every religion and in cultures that predates the Bible as well.
Without belief in God there can be no morality
I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen a Christian state that without God there can be no morality. That atheists should just be doing whatever they want because in our world view there are no consequences. That the world would fall into total anarchy without the Bible. Yet it doesn't seem to happen. The world’s most secular first world countries consistently rank among the safest with the highest quality of life. This argument has always disturbed me as it suggests that the Bible is the only thing keeping them from murdering and stealing.
These same Christians also seem to miss that fact that we have laws which deter people from committing crimes. Our society has a system in which you can't just do whatever you want. Having laws that forbid murder and stealing is hardly something that the Bible invented. It existed in societies long before then.
Motivations to do good
Then we get to the part where Christians are motivated to do good deeds because they will be rewarded forever in an afterlife but punished forever if they do not perform to God's standards. This is supposed to be the big nail in the coffin for secularists. We don't have a forever paradise or eternal torture to guide us into making the right decisions. Well, according to how it supposedly works we should be thankful! For Christians it doesn't matter how horrible you've been throughout your life as long as you accept Jesus before you die. It also doesn't matter how noble you've been throughout your life if you have not accepted Jesus. You're one of the unfortunate ones born in the wrong part of the world where no one taught you about Jesus? Too bad! You burn anyway!
Most atheists believe that they have only one life. Why would we want to waste most of it in prison? Why would we want our friends and family to hate us because we're terrible people? We only have one shot at this so that seems like motivation to make the best of it.
I'm glad my belief doesn't include rewarding murderers and rapists with eternal paradise because they later decided to take advantage of God's insecurities. Nor does it include burning a good person alive forever just because they require evidence to believe in God. I believe I once heard Matt Dillahunty (correct me if I’m wrong) who compared the Christian world view as treating this life as a welcome mat to clean your feet before entering the real life which comes after. It's an accurate comparison and I can find little morality in a world view like that.
Straw man alert!
The argument goes like this: Without God there can be no basis for the existence of OBJECTIVE moral values.
If you or anyone else thinks there can be, state your case. I'm all ears.
As far as stealing, I wonder just how well your argument would hold up if you remove the fear of consequences. For example, the fear of consequences was gone last week with the Missouri riots so American citizens robbed businesses in their own neighborhood, greedily taking away from hard working people.
So I'm wrong because atheists also have a fear of consequences to keep them from stealing? I could easily say the same to you. I wonder if you would steal if not for fear of God condemning you to hell? Oh you can just ask for forgiveness after so I guess there's not really much to worry about.
It reminds me of a quote from Emo Phillips:
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If you think that is an isolated case then look at the problem of piracy. Millions of movies and songs have been downloaded without paying for it because there is no fear of consequence. That's stealing according to the copyright owners.
Yes it's stealing according to copyright owners however aren't you only concerned about what God considers stealing? I don't think the internet existed when the Bible was authored. Also, are you suggesting that only non-Christians are pirating things from the internet? Unless you have some kind of evidence that shows Christians do not pirate things online then I fail to see how Jesus is solving our issues with morality. That is after all, what this thread is about.
It's no straw man because some Christians have stated exactly what I said. I'm addressing statements I've heard from Christians, not targeting a specific Christians and claiming they have that opinion. It is impossible for me to list every single individually different argument from all Christians in this thread. If you or anyone does not agree with one of the Christian beliefs I have listed then it is not targeted toward you but to people who do in fact hold that belief.
I tried to state that "some" Christians argue this or that as much as possible but it should go without saying that I do not think ALL Christians agree with everything I've pointed out.
I think religion and morality is both a complicated and simple topic. It's complicated because moral actions aren't always clearly defined and because there are some very gray areas even when you iron out the definition of morality. It’s not simply black and white but can have many shades of gray.
It's simple because although there are shades of gray, most accepted definitions of morality have a lot of obvious black and white components. Random murder or donations to charity for example. While it might not be clear in some situations what is the more moral action, it is pretty clear to me that the Bible is not in any way a good instruction book for living a moral life.
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I disagree that the bible, and especially the words of Jesus Christ, is not a good instruction book for living a moral life.
I love the way Jesus described the law in Matthew 22:35-40: 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Quote:
Defining Morality
I think it's very reasonable to sum up morality as something that creates the most positive impact on a person or people while having the least amount of negative impact on them. This goes for both physical and mental benefit/harm. So I would say robbing someone on the street so you can buy your niece a birthday gift is immoral. The negative of the person robbed certainly outweighs the positive of getting a new PlayStation. On the grayer side of things would be imposing an exceptionally harsh punishment on one criminal to send a message to the others as a deterrent for future crimes. Anything where you have to rely on what may or may not happen in the future as a result of the action tends to be less clear cut. It's one reason why the American nuclear bombings of Japan are often debated morally.
Then you have some Christian fundamentalists who will argue that morality is whatever God says it is. Basically, actions are not moral in themselves but only moral because God says they are. This argument means that if God appeared tomorrow and said slavery is now moral then it would suddenly be ok to own people. There would be no real need for this however as God already thinks slavery is ok according to the Bible. It’s just cognitive dissonance, social pressure or simply not reading the book that causes many Christians to agree that it is not.
Just read Matthew 22:35-40 if you want it to hear what God says about morality. Would you not agree with Jesus Christ in what He said?
Quote:
But there are good things in the Bible!
When their moral standards are questioned then often I hear Christians bring up the golden rule, the Ten Commandments or some cheery picked quote from Jesus. Sure there are some good things in the Bible but there are some good things in many things that are generally accepted as bad. Often criminal organizations will donate money to charities for good PR but I certainly don't consider outlaw motorcycle gangs to have a net positive impact on society.
I can't speak for anyone else but I'm a Christian and you can question me all day long and I won't be offended. It's hard to overcome the argument of cherry picking, though. What you might consider cherry picking I would consider evidence that supports that God is moral. Just because criminal organizations do some good doesn't preclude that Jesus Christ is all good. I believe that's an argument known as 'red herring'.
Quote:
Most of the good stuff is cherry picked from various parts of the book. You'll be told all about the Ten Commandments. However they'll leave out that only 3 of the 10 are actual laws with many obvious actions left out of the commandments. Most of the others are God expressing its insecurities. It’s not very often you hear them bring up the other 603 commandments either.
Which of the Commandments are you morally opposed to? Where does God express His insecurities?
Quote:
If you try to point out all of the disgusting immoral things said in the Old Testament you'll be told that it's irrelevant because the New Testament replaces it. Of course the Old Testament is still relevant somehow when they want to use the Ten Commandments. It can be dismissed or used as evidence at the convenience of the believer. Oh and that part of the Bible where Jesus states that he has not come to replace the writings of the Old Testament? Just ignore that too.
What disgusting things? Please be specific. As to the last part, I believe you are referring to Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Do you believe this is inconsistent with the truth? If so, why?
Quote:
The golden rule is another favorite. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Not a bad rule if most Christians actually followed it. It seems to go out the window when gay rights, women's right, secular opinions or opposing religions are concerned. It also does not take into consideration that some people would like to be treated in ways that most other would not. Christianity can hardly take credit for the golden rule though as it exists in some form in almost every religion and in cultures that predates the Bible as well.
Well Jesus was no fan of hypocrisy and as a Christian neither am I. But I'll be 100% honest with you. I've been a hypocrite at times in my life. I believe we all have. But God knows the truth about human nature, and that is why He sent his Son to save us from our sin. You see, Christianity is not about the greatness, morality, integrity, etc of dysgenic or any other Christian. Christianity is about the greatness of God revealed through His Son, Jesus Christ. That's what I believe.
Without belief in God there can be no morality
I
Quote:
can't begin to count the number of times I've seen a Christian state that without God there can be no morality. That atheists should just be doing whatever they want because in our world view there are no consequences. That the world would fall into total anarchy without the Bible. Yet it doesn't seem to happen. The world’s most secular first world countries consistently rank among the safest with the highest quality of life. This argument has always disturbed me as it suggests that the Bible is the only thing keeping them from murdering and stealing.
These same Christians also seem to miss that fact that we have laws which deter people from committing crimes. Our society has a system in which you can't just do whatever you want. Having laws that forbid murder and stealing is hardly something that the Bible invented. It existed in societies long before then.
As a Christian I wouldn't necessarily say that I believe that without a belief in God there can be no morality. I would say my belief is that without God, there can be no morality. There is a difference. The character of Jesus Christ is one of infinite mercy and love. He loves and has mercy towards people that believe on him, and those that don't. I do believe that without the mercy of God that atheists would have no morality. Edit to add: actually without the mercy of God, Christians wouldn't have morality, either.
Quote:
Motivations to do good
Then we get to the part where Christians are motivated to do good deeds because they will be rewarded forever in an afterlife but punished forever if they do not perform to God's standards. This is supposed to be the big nail in the coffin for secularists. We don't have a forever paradise or eternal torture to guide us into making the right decisions. Well, according to how it supposedly works we should be thankful! For Christians it doesn't matter how horrible you've been throughout your life as long as you accept Jesus before you die. It also doesn't matter how noble you've been throughout your life if you have not accepted Jesus. You're one of the unfortunate ones born in the wrong part of the world where no one taught you about Jesus? Too bad! You burn anyway!
My friend, it's about the heart. My God is not a God of coercion. And coercion does not work anyway. Think of the way that life works. You may compel someone to do something on your behalf for a time, but in the end people go with their heart. Speaking for myself, I want to do good works on behalf of God because I love Him. Do I fail a lot of the time to do this? Yes, I do. But I'm still working on it.
Quote:
Most atheists believe that they have only one life. Why would we want to waste most of it in prison? Why would we want our friends and family to hate us because we're terrible people? We only have one shot at this so that seems like motivation to make the best of it.
I'm glad my belief doesn't include rewarding murderers and rapists with eternal paradise because they later decided to take advantage of God's insecurities. Nor does it include burning a good person alive forever just because they require evidence to believe in God. I believe I once heard Matt Dillahunty (correct me if I’m wrong) who compared the Christian world view as treating this life as a welcome mat to clean your feet before entering the real life which comes after. It's an accurate comparison and I can find little morality in a world view like that.
You don't understand. If you truly want to understand, ask God to show you your heart and to show you His heart.
Without the Bible or moral law, people operate according to their best self interests and desires.
Partly true. You have left out the option that we are a social species, hard wired for cooperation and protection of others. We tend not to kill because it doesn't benefit us personally, and it harms the group/species as a whole. The meme of saving a baby from oncoming traffic has an emotional impact on everybody, precisely because it is an example of hard wired cooperation.
So, you have provided us with some, but not all, of the factors that combine to form our morality.
Quote:
If you think that is an isolated case then look at the problem of piracy. Millions of movies and songs have been downloaded without paying for it because there is no fear of consequence. That's stealing according to the copyright owners.
Which is a great example as to why morality is not derived from god, or the concept that all sin is equally abhorrent is silly.
Christians pirate stuff all the time. Therefore the moral restriction against piracy is not exclusively Christian. Similarly, if all sin were equally abhorrent to a god, wouldn't we feel equally bad about piracy, petty theft, rape and murder? We don't, but in god's mind they are all equivalent. This seems to be a pretty convincing demonstration that human morality is superior to divine morality.
The argument goes like this: Without God there can be no basis for the existence of OBJECTIVE moral values.
If you or anyone else thinks there can be, state your case. I'm all ears.
It is not a straw man because we can demonstrate common ideas of morality throughout human existence. Add to this the fact that the god of the Christian bible frequently operates in an immoral way, and we pretty much have to conclude that there is an origin morality aside from the Christian concept.
Which of the Commandments are you morally opposed to? Where does God express His insecurities?
Honor thy father and mother. What if they are sadistic pedophiles who enjoy eating human flesh from living victims? The bible god demands that these people be honored, my superior sense of morality says otherwise
Thou shall not covet. Pretty much flies in the face of capitalism.
Why is there no restriction against slavery, but several warning against graven images and honoring other gods.
The 10 C's are obviously an inadequate moral code with a lot of silly stuff thrown in.
I think religion and morality is both a complicated and simple topic. It's complicated because moral actions aren't always clearly defined and because there are some very gray areas even when you iron out the definition of morality. It’s not simply black and white but can have many shades of gray.
It's simple because although there are shades of gray, most accepted definitions of morality have a lot of obvious black and white components. Random murder or donations to charity for example. While it might not be clear in some situations what is the more moral action, it is pretty clear to me that the Bible is not in any way a good instruction book for living a moral life.
Defining Morality
I think it's very reasonable to sum up morality as something that creates the most positive impact on a person or people while having the least amount of negative impact on them.
Why? What makes this definition of morality "correct"? Until we establish this point, the rest of your argument is moot.
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