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I just ran across something that... Well, if I read it here, I'd say someone was making it up. Yes, it's on the internet, but it's coming from MSNBC.
Pope Alexander VI's Banquet of Chestnuts in 1501 involved 50 whores entertaining guests. Prizes were awarded for those who had the most sex. Pope John XII ran a brothel in the Vatican, toasted the Devil, castrated a Cardinal, and ordained a 10 year-old Bishop. He was deposed by Otto I, the Holy Roman Emperor.
Now, I do realize these were from bygone eras, but I was always taught that the Pope was "infallible" from St Peter on to the present. But, might this, in some way, help to explain why the Church was dragging it's feet with regard to priests that were molesting kids?
I have to wonder if there's more to the story as to how they became "Pope"? I always thought the Church was against sex outside of marriage... Seems that has not always been the case....
Yeah... "MSN Entertainment"... Somehow, I didn't find it all that entertaining....
They say that he is infallible when teaching "ex cathedra". There have only been a handful of such statements made throughout the years...good luck in getting a list of them. No catholic apologist can agree on a list of such statements.
They also claim he's infallible when teaching on faith and morals. As a result, the Catholic church will never compromise on things like abortion or homosexuality because it would mean they were wrong on it. They are backed into a corner on it and it would mean that they aren't really God's church if they admit they were wrong.
Infallibility does obviously not refer to the inability to sin. Infallibility only applies when the pope defines ex cathedra that a doctrine concerning faith and morals must be held by the whole church.
So, it's only a dogma when the Vatican says it is. Which doesn't happen too often. For an incomplete list see this article from L'Osservatore Romano CDF Doctrinal Commentary - Professio fidei (paragraph 11).
Alexander VI and John XII. Yeah, they led a sinful life. And I doubt they were the only popes who did stuff like that. But then again: What has that to do with infallibility?
Alexander VI and John XII. Yeah, they led a sinful life. And I doubt they were the only popes who did stuff like that. But then again: What has that to do with infallibility?
The old "Do as I say, not as I do".
I realize it's not a matter of dogma, but how can someone believe infallibility if that's what's going on in the Vatican? How does someone toast the Devil and serve GOD at the same time? Remember the "house divided"? To me, it raises questions. Great big ones. I mean, that just doesn't play right at all.
I realize it's not a matter of dogma, but how can someone believe infallibility if that's what's going on in the Vatican? How does someone toast the Devil and serve GOD at the same time? Remember the "house divided"? To me, it raises questions. Great big ones. I mean, that just doesn't play right at all.
Because Jesus said to listen to the hypocrites.
"Do as the priests say, not as they do" ~Jesus
the whole "toast devil" thing and anything else, might have been propaganda and lies from those who supported the emperor and were against the Bishop of Rome. Or perhaps those Popes were descendant of those who followed Bacchus, so they couldn't help themselves with the sins of their fathers. Or perhaps, as Martin Luther said, they chose to sin heavily since Jesus died for them... what more sacrifice does Jesus want from us? Who wants to store up riches in heaven when heaven is perfect all by itself?
God wouldn't let a Pope lie about "ex blah blah" God is too involved with Earth for that. Why then does God let the children starve to death? Well, because they aren't "birds of the sky" of course, and because this deluded Deva that the ancient Jews supposedly sold their race to cares more about "ex yada yada" than about starving children.
the whole "toast devil" thing and anything else, might have been propaganda and lies from those who supported the emperor and were against the Bishop of Rome. Or perhaps those Popes were descendant of those who followed Bacchus, so they couldn't help themselves with the sins of their fathers. Or perhaps, as Martin Luther said, they chose to sin heavily since Jesus died for them... what more sacrifice does Jesus want from us? Who wants to store up riches in heaven when heaven is perfect all by itself?
God wouldn't let a Pope lie about "ex blah blah" God is too involved with Earth for that. Why then does God let the children starve to death? Well, because they aren't "birds of the sky" of course, and because this deluded Deva that the ancient Jews supposedly sold their race to cares more about "ex yada yada" than about starving children.
Any other ideas?
Never mind. We're not on the back stretch yet. You lost me on that first turn. I have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
I realize it's not a matter of dogma, but how can someone believe infallibility if that's what's going on in the Vatican? How does someone toast the Devil and serve GOD at the same time? Remember the "house divided"? To me, it raises questions. Great big ones. I mean, that just doesn't play right at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth
Because Jesus said to listen to the hypocrites.
"Do as the priests say, not as they do" ~Jesus
the whole "toast devil" thing and anything else, might have been propaganda and lies from those who supported the emperor and were against the Bishop of Rome. Or perhaps those Popes were descendant of those who followed Bacchus, so they couldn't help themselves with the sins of their fathers. Or perhaps, as Martin Luther said, they chose to sin heavily since Jesus died for them... what more sacrifice does Jesus want from us? Who wants to store up riches in heaven when heaven is perfect all by itself?
God wouldn't let a Pope lie about "ex blah blah" God is too involved with Earth for that. Why then does God let the children starve to death? Well, because they aren't "birds of the sky" of course, and because this deluded Deva that the ancient Jews supposedly sold their race to cares more about "ex yada yada" than about starving children.
Any other ideas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_windwalker
Never mind. We're not on the back stretch yet. You lost me on that first turn. I have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Yes. I didn't think it would be hard to understand what I wrote.
1. You questioned why Christians might follow Hypocrites. Jesus says in the gospels that the Rabbis and Temple leaders were hypocrites at that time and to listen to them anyway.
2. Propaganda is Propaganda; and the Popes that you mentioned might have been slandered by their enemies, such as that Otto and his followers.
3. Sinners are human. Popes are human.
4. They are Christian, so Jesus is going to save them through faith, not because they were virgins and chaste. Good works don't matter anyway, even to Popes, because all true Christians are guaranteed heaven. (In some views)
5. The whole notion of infallibility rests on "ex cathedra" dogmas, since God would "intervene" when those would be uttered. I then mentioned how God doesn't intervene to help starving children not die. Although Jesus said that "God feeds the birds of the sky" in the Gospels in order to urge people to give up their belongings and savings and give it all to charity. So I tried highlighting the fact that children are starving... with a little implication about how God doesn't actually feed the birds of the sky. The next implication being that I believe "ex cathedra" doctrines are b.s. just like everything dogmatic from any religion.
6. Then I asked for other ideas (perhaps even from actual Christians) to answer your post which I tried to answer.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 03-22-2013 at 03:40 AM..
I realize it's not a matter of dogma, but how can someone believe infallibility if that's what's going on in the Vatican? How does someone toast the Devil and serve GOD at the same time? Remember the "house divided"? To me, it raises questions. Great big ones. I mean, that just doesn't play right at all.
RESPONSE:
Actually, it is a matter of dogma:
From the First Vatican Council, an ecumenical council that taught infallibly.
"We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
that is, when,
in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
he possesses,
by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable."
And if Catholics persist in denying that, they go to hell.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 03-22-2013 at 06:03 AM..
Reason: typo
Actually, Vatican II did away with a number of former infallible teachings.
For example:
Pope Pius IX's Quanta Cura (1864):
"And from this wholly false idea of social organisation they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, especially fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by our predecessor, Gregory XVI, insanity, namely that the liberty of conscience and worship is the proper right of every man, and should be proclaimed by law in every correctly established society... Each and every doctrine individually mentioned in this letter, by Our Apostolic authority We reject, proscribe and condemn; and We wish and command that they be considered as absolutely rejected by all the sons of the Church."
Second Vatican Council: Declaration on Religious Liberty Dignitatis Humanae(1964)
"The Council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person... This right to religious freedom is to be recognised in the constitutional law whereby society is governed. Thus it is to become a civil right."
Thus a complete reversal of an unchanageable teaching within 100 years!
I just ran across something that... Well, if I read it here, I'd say someone was making it up. Yes, it's on the internet, but it's coming from MSNBC.
Pope Alexander VI's Banquet of Chestnuts in 1501 involved 50 whores entertaining guests. Prizes were awarded for those who had the most sex. Pope John XII ran a brothel in the Vatican, toasted the Devil, castrated a Cardinal, and ordained a 10 year-old Bishop. He was deposed by Otto I, the Holy Roman Emperor.
Now, I do realize these were from bygone eras, but I was always taught that the Pope was "infallible" from St Peter on to the present. But, might this, in some way, help to explain why the Church was dragging it's feet with regard to priests that were molesting kids?
I have to wonder if there's more to the story as to how they became "Pope"? I always thought the Church was against sex outside of marriage... Seems that has not always been the case....
Yeah... "MSN Entertainment"... Somehow, I didn't find it all that entertaining....
Infallible when speaking "ex cathedra", not when picking soccer winners. Sorry you do not understand.
To my knowledge, there have been only two "ex cathedra" proclamations, both of which centered around The Virgin Mary (I will accept more current information)
You folks who say that because popes in the distant past were corrupt then nothing theological is valid are seriously misguided.
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