"Disappointment with God" - The [Christian] book that did me in (Isaiah, gospel)
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So god specifically selected non-Christians for eternal hell? Wow, that would make god a ruthless monster, a heartless bastard.
No. That doctrine is called reprobation, or double predestination. Calvin himself said it was a horrible thing. Romans, chapters 8-9 specifically says that he does choose some for salvation but not all. He is merciful for doing that.
We have done a good job of making sure we deserve hell on our own.
With the rash of deconversions and deconversion stories being told on City Data recently, I am reminded of something that led to my own deconversion. Ironically it was a Christian book. It was not necessarily the bible (the bible only served to CONFIRM my decision to deconvert), instead it was Christian author, Philip Yancey's book, Disappointment with God, that did. The book, intended to somehow strengthen faith in the Christian god, had the reverse effect on me primarily because of a person Mr. Yancey mentions in his book by the name of Richard. Richard, a devout Christian turned atheist, asked some questions I NEVER considered and just like Mr. Yancey found out, there were NO easy answers to Richard's questions. In fact, it almost seemed like Mr. Yancey empathized with Richard, understanding WHY he would kick Christianity to the curb which I found quite interesting and telling (I still think Mr. Yancey is a closet unbeliever, but the Christian book writing field is too lucrative to leave).
Just like I felt at the moment of my deconversion ("was I the only one feeling this way???") I thought, for years now, that I was the only one who actually who ended up on the other side of this book's intention. I now realize I was wasn't as evidenced by this blog:
Few thoughts with people ive talked with that are disappointed :
1. Being disappointed with God doesnt mean he is therefore non existent ; it means you are disappointed with a certain outcome(s) which you feel you know ALL about / know substantially about .
2. Being disappointed with God doesnt mean he doesnt care or doesnt have your greatest concern at hand.
3. Being disappointed with God is based on your limited perspective and not the entire chessboard game which God sees from start to finish in your life, and everyones elses at the same time.
4. Being disappointed with God is a natural reaction when we arent happy with the way things are going for us...even though we dont see a deeper meaning and purpose to what we are enduring. But we have the opportunity to not get stuck in it.
5. Being disappointed with God is no excuse for rejecting him, pretending he doesnt exist, thinking he is an old Ogar , that he isnt interested in you or mankind, or that he is severely limited. No Creator who brings a fully functioning Universe into existence from nothing and provides hundreds of scientifically confirmed Life Enabling Constants for earth to be our home, is limited in any way.
6. Being disappointed with God doesnt mean he no longer loves you. He does and he says he will be with you when you walk thru the desert IF youll allow him to.
7. Being prolonged disappointed with God is oftentimes an excuse for not wanting to submit to his leadership, wisdom, guidance, and trust that he knows whats best.
8 . Being disappointed in this life was told to us that it would occur , but we also can be overcomers of it by Christ who gives us the strength to do so. We are not abandoned , even if we *feel we are. But we are not to trust our emotions and understanding ... we are and can trust Gods character .
9. We are told in our next life, Heaven if you are going, that there will be a reward for those who suffer in this life ...and that is : No more disappointments, pain, sorrow, or death.
10 . The ball is always in our court on how we handle disappointments and how we are going to let it affect us , forwardly.
It also tells us that the earth is flat and putting the right type of sticks near a pregnant animal will change how the babies look. It's obvious the authors of the Bible doesn't always have much to do with reality - you're just giving us more evidence of that.
Can you provide chapter and verse where it says that?
Can you provide chapter and verse where it says that?
Theo, I know you believe that the bible is the word of God and therefore should not be questioned, however, when absurdities arise that defy common sense it does bring one into questioning the validity of the statements. You replied in my post. "it's in the bible, you just have to accept it", my friend that isn't good enough.
Here are just a few absurdities, there are many, many more.
Genesis 30:37-39 Stripped sticks place in front of an animal will cause the off spring to be ringstraked, speckled, and spotted
Numbers 22:28-29 Here we have a talking ass (donkey) or was this an attempt to say that Balaam was talking out of his a**. Either way both are wrong.
Leviticus 11:20 Here in this verse we have God saying that fowls that creep on all four shall be an abomination. Fowls are birds, they've only have 2 legs, always have.
Leviticus 11:13-19 Here we have God calling a "Bat" a fowl, bats are mammals not fowl.
Joshua 10:12-13 Here is the famous, "Sun stood still in the sky" verse, we both know that the sun doesn't move (well except moving through the galaxy) it is the earth that is moving. So what would be the effect if the earth stopped, think about that.
I guess you'll come back with the ole standard reply "God can do anything", will good luck with that.
Few thoughts with people ive talked with that are disappointed :
1. Being disappointed with God doesnt mean he is therefore non existent ; it means you are disappointed with a certain outcome(s) which you feel you know ALL about / know substantially about .
2. Being disappointed with God doesnt mean he doesnt care or doesnt have your greatest concern at hand.
3. Being disappointed with God is based on your limited perspective and not the entire chessboard game which God sees from start to finish in your life, and everyones elses at the same time.
4. Being disappointed with God is a natural reaction when we arent happy with the way things are going for us...even though we dont see a deeper meaning and purpose to what we are enduring. But we have the opportunity to not get stuck in it.
5. Being disappointed with God is no excuse for rejecting him, pretending he doesnt exist, thinking he is an old Ogar , that he isnt interested in you or mankind, or that he is severely limited. No Creator who brings a fully functioning Universe into existence from nothing and provides hundreds of scientifically confirmed Life Enabling Constants for earth to be our home, is limited in any way.
6. Being disappointed with God doesnt mean he no longer loves you. He does and he says he will be with you when you walk thru the desert IF youll allow him to.
7. Being prolonged disappointed with God is oftentimes an excuse for not wanting to submit to his leadership, wisdom, guidance, and trust that he knows whats best.
8 . Being disappointed in this life was told to us that it would occur , but we also can be overcomers of it by Christ who gives us the strength to do so. We are not abandoned , even if we *feel we are. But we are not to trust our emotions and understanding ... we are and can trust Gods character .
9. We are told in our next life, Heaven if you are going, that there will be a reward for those who suffer in this life ...and that is : No more disappointments, pain, sorrow, or death.
10 . The ball is always in our court on how we handle disappointments and how we are going to let it affect us , forwardly.
Let's get something clear here, Theo. Despite the book, my stepping away from the Christian faith was NOT because I was disappointed in god. I don't think there was ever a time when I was, say, disappointed in god because I was conditioned not to even consider the thought. Christians are conditioned to accept that if there is any problem, THEY are ALWAYS the issue why a prayer is not answered or if things do not go their way.
I left Christianity strictly for intellectual reasons and it was AFTER that, I became very disappointed in myself that I wasted over 15 years of my life seeking "first the kingdom of god" and selling out to everything and anything that would further the Gospel. In my day, in a super strict, legalistic atmosphere where "the world" was to be shunned, I passed up on a potential basketball career, opportunities to travel, opportunities to date some more, opportunities to be more involved in school activities and so on. Such things are why I was disappointed in MYSELF. I was well aware no god had anything to do with it. I trusted in a book written by men and (at a point) trusted in people who I believed were entrusted with teaching me divine truth. Pile of crock that was. It makes even more sense now because I do NOT believe the biblical god exists so being disappointed in such a thing would be real stupid. It's like being disappointed santa did not come to my house.
Theo, I know you believe that the bible is the word of God and therefore should not be questioned, however, when absurdities arise that defy common sense it does bring one into questioning the validity of the statements. You replied in my post. "it's in the bible, you just have to accept it", my friend that isn't good enough.
Did I say that?
Quote:
Here are just a few absurdities, there are many, many more.
Genesis 30:37-39 Stripped sticks place in front of an animal will cause the off spring to be ringstraked, speckled, and spotted
Jacob practiced what was surely an old wive's tale at the time. God chose to honor it. In any event, this was a miracle of God--not the sticks that caused it as some sort of superstition.
Quote:
Numbers 22:28-29 Here we have a talking ass (donkey) or was this an attempt to say that Balaam was talking out of his a**. Either way both are wrong.
Yes--God allowed the donkey to speak.
Quote:
Leviticus 11:20 Here in this verse we have God saying that fowls that creep on all four shall be an abomination. Fowls are birds, they've only have 2 legs, always have.
Leviticus 11:13-19 Here we have God calling a "Bat" a fowl, bats are mammals not fowl.
I'm assuming you realize the Hebrew writer used a different categorization of animals...right?
Quote:
Joshua 10:12-13 Here is the famous, "Sun stood still in the sky" verse, we both know that the sun doesn't move (well except moving through the galaxy) it is the earth that is moving. So what would be the effect if the earth stopped, think about that.
So when my weatherman tonight says the sun will rise tomorrow morning I should call the tv station and scream at them? Or do you get the concept of a "figure of speech"?
Quote:
I guess you'll come back with the ole standard reply "God can do anything", will good luck with that.
He can do anything. We should realize that some things are miracles, and some are figures of speech. If you can't figure that out, I don't know that arguing with you will help.
I did notice that you apparently chickened out of the "flat earth" argument.
Theo, I did notice that you apparently chickened out of the "flat earth" argument. That argument has been beat to death, no need to bring it up, we both know the world isn't flat.
I'm assuming you realize the Hebrew writer used a different categorization of animals...right? I guess that just makes it alright, we'll just re-classify animals as we see fit, just to make them fit our beliefs. If you choose to believe that fowl have 4 legs and bats are birds, then so be it.
So when my weatherman tonight says the sun will rise tomorrow morning I should call the tv station and scream at them? Or do you get the concept of a "figure of speech"?
Amd what does this have to do with the "Sun standing still for a day", was it just a figure of speech? Either way the earth would have to have stopped it's revolution, then it would have had to start it back up at the same speed, do you understand the dymanics of this? Yes--God allowed the donkey to speak. So God doesn't want animals to speak, and they can speak only when God allows it? Jacob practiced what was surely an old wive's tale at the time. God chose to honor it.In any event, this was a miracle of God--not the sticks that caused it as some sort of superstition.
I guess I'll just chalk this one upto "God having a sense of humor".
Theo, I did notice that you apparently chickened out of the "flat earth" argument. That argument has been beat to death, no need to bring it up, we both know the world isn't flat.
And my challenge to show me a verse that claims it didn't get answered. The Bible doesn't claim it.
Quote:
I'm assuming you realize the Hebrew writer used a different categorization of animals...right? I guess that just makes it alright, we'll just re-classify animals as we see fit, just to make them fit our beliefs. If you choose to believe that fowl have 4 legs and bats are birds, then so be it.
Considering that the Hebrew writer wrote that well before modern science decided to classify things differently, I don't have an issue with it.
Quote:
So when my weatherman tonight says the sun will rise tomorrow morning I should call the tv station and scream at them? Or do you get the concept of a "figure of speech"?
Amd what does this have to do with the "Sun standing still for a day", was it just a figure of speech? Either way the earth would have to have stopped it's revolution, then it would have had to start it back up at the same speed, do you understand the dymanics of this?
If God can create the universe by speaking, I don't have an issue with him freezing time or causing the day to last longer in some way. Maybe he made the earth stop rotating...maybe he made the earth move differently..or the sun. I have no clue. It doesn't matter, ultimately, because there are much bigger miracles in the Bible.
Quote:
Yes--God allowed the donkey to speak. So God doesn't want animals to speak, and they can speak only when God allows it?
Apparently, yes.
Quote:
Jacob practiced what was surely an old wive's tale at the time. God chose to honor it.In any event, this was a miracle of God--not the sticks that caused it as some sort of superstition.
I guess I'll just chalk this one upto "God having a sense of humor".
Or perhaps he used it as he saw fit.
Still waiting on that flat earth verse that you claimed to have.
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