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Only if you willingly admit to being a jerk while doing so. Because the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is as jerky as it gets.
Honestly? We get sick of the "I was once one of you" nonsense. You had a religious experience, I get that. But please stop trying to speak for all of us because you didn't stay in the religion.
Honestly? We get sick of the "I was once one of you" nonsense. You had a religious experience, I get that. But please stop trying to speak for all of us because you didn't stay in the religion.
I actually don't speak for any former Christians - I was never a true one. As a preteen I would have said I was a Christian without really understanding what it meant, and have been an atheist since I was 13. So I would hardly count as a deconversion. But I have known those who were true believers, as true as you are now. You will never convince me that they weren't true believers. They were, clear as day.
So stop assuming things about people you know nothing about. That's called being a jerk. And even if it is supported by your holy book, it is still 100% insulting, arrogant, and jerky.
Also: I'm not sure where you get the idea that ex-Christians speak for all Christians. I've been trying to parse that, and simply don't understand where you're coming from. Could you elaborate?
I actually don't speak for any former Christians - I was never a true one. As a preteen I would have said I was a Christian without really understanding what it meant, and have been an atheist since I was 13. So I would hardly count as a deconversion. But I have known those who were true believers, as true as you are now. You will never convince me that they weren't true believers. They were, clear as day.
So stop assuming things about people you know nothing about. That's called being a jerk. And even if it is supported by your holy book, it is still 100% insulting, arrogant, and jerky.
Also: I'm not sure where you get the idea that ex-Christians speak for all Christians. I've been trying to parse that, and simply don't understand where you're coming from. Could you elaborate?
I get what you're saying. I'm not trying to be a jerk. The Bible tells us that those that have a true commitment remain in the faith. I'm sorry if you take it as arrogant--but it's not what I'm about. You're offended by it? Fine--I get offended when you guys try to water down our faith to a momentary phase that we are going through and when we come to our sense, we'll be like you.
I get what you're saying. I'm not trying to be a jerk. The Bible tells us that those that have a true commitment remain in the faith. I'm sorry if you take it as arrogant--but it's not what I'm about. You're offended by it? Fine--I get offended when you guys try to water down our faith to a momentary phase that we are going through and when we come to our sense, we'll be like you.
I hear that you're not trying to be arrogant, but it's really hard to get the idea of "everything you say is a lie, and I understand your thought processes better than you do" to be anything but arrogant. I mean, you do realize that's what you're saying, right? "I know you better than you do." That's why it is offensive.
As to the second point - I'm not sure I've met any ex-Christians who claim that their faith was just a phase. That's the whole point - none believed that it was a phase. They were staunch believers. And while I can't speak for any real former Christians, most ex-Christians that I know don't actually want to convert any other Christians, because they knew how hard it was for them to lose their faith, how painful the process was.
And that's why your glib arrogance is infuriating to me, the never-Christian. I have seen how hard it has been for some of my ex-Christian friends, and you just turn it around and say "nope, they were never Christian, so they didn't go through any heartache. Must have been as easy as choosing an outfit to wear."
I hear that you're not trying to be arrogant, but it's really hard to get the idea of "everything you say is a lie, and I understand your thought processes better than you do" to be anything but arrogant. I mean, you do realize that's what you're saying, right? "I know you better than you do." That's why it is offensive.
Isn't that what an atheist does every time they tell us that they used to be one of us until they saw the light?
Isn't that what an atheist does every time they tell us that they used to be one of us until they saw the light?
No, not at all. Not even a little bit related. In fact, what atheists say or believe really has nothing to do with the arrogance we're talking about. Some atheists might be arrogant and say that you think poorly for believing what you do. This happens more than it should, but it does happen. What atheist don't do, however, is claim that you don't actually believe what you believe right now. That's the difference, the one you seem to be skirting around.
Atheists don't ever claim that "Christians don't actually believe, they just haven't had the guts to admit it." I've never once heard that argument from anyone. But that's ultimately what you're saying. "This former Christian never really believed. He or She was obviously lying the whole time."
I am honestly not sure how you're not seeing the unique form of arrogance here. Maybe I'm just not wording it correctly. Both atheists and believers can be arrogant, for sure, and claim that other people aren't looking at the facts correctly. But what you're doing is a step above. You're saying that there are people who are incapable of even knowing what their own beliefs are or were. You might as well say that I am incapable of liking rock music, because you can't fathom how anyone can like rock music, and therefore anyone who likes it is obviously just fooling himself.
Worded again: Say a former Christian converts to Islam instead of deconverts. You'd be just as arrogant for saying the former Christian wasn't ever a Christian. It has nothing to do with atheism.
Christ says we're all weak. We need to come to the fold and realize in self-knowledge each one of ourselves our weaknesses. Then...
11-22-2011, 02:50 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont
I hear that you're not trying to be arrogant, but it's really hard to get the idea of "everything you say is a lie, and I understand your thought processes better than you do" to be anything but arrogant. I mean, you do realize that's what you're saying, right? "I know you better than you do." That's why it is offensive.
As to the second point - I'm not sure I've met any ex-Christians who claim that their faith was just a phase. That's the whole point - none believed that it was a phase. They were staunch believers. And while I can't speak for any real former Christians, most ex-Christians that I know don't actually want to convert any other Christians, because they knew how hard it was for them to lose their faith, how painful the process was.
And that's why your glib arrogance is infuriating to me, the never-Christian. I have seen how hard it has been for some of my ex-Christian friends, and you just turn it around and say "nope, they were never Christian, so they didn't go through any heartache. Must have been as easy as choosing an outfit to wear."
Agree with all the above - this 'You were never a Christian' bit is just a facade to cover the fact that they have no answers for those who leave the faith. They just throw them to the side in order not to deal with the issues at hand. It's either you were never chosen or you were never one of us to begin with. Then they hide behind the verse as if it it not them but some objective fact that everyone else must deal with before they have to deal with you on another level.
They never tell anyone how you know you are saved. And if they do watch them squirm as you point out the problems - it always either just believe or believe and do those things that please God. They love to show you how your motives, heart, trust, faith, etc. were misguided but fail to show that according to the Bible the heart is deceitfully wicked who can know it.
It is just their little protection device for TCD -Theological Cognitive Dissonance.
A True Christian = A Forever Christian
True Christian (A) leaves the faith - OOOPS!
True Christian (B) says to True Christian (A) you were never a True Christian.
Therefore True Christian (B) says it does not matter why you left, so I do not have to deal with those things.
If you were accepting Christianity on blind faith and had never actually considered the tough questions, I'd think you were probably never actually a Christian. My guess is that you were living in a religious lifestyle, probably quite serious about going to church and being a good person--but you missed the whole point. You weren't living in faith--trust in Christ alone.
Yes, I was. I was "saved by faith alone, in Christ alone." I believed because of blind faith, but that doesn't mean I was never a Christian.
Quote:
Honestly? I think it's good that you thought about those questions--and decided to think seriously about it. We have too many people in our churches today that are only there because it's comfortable and they feel good about the Sunday morning experience. If you don't want to be there, just stay home.
I agree.
Quote:
The Bible knows of no such thing as a "former Christian". John wrote that if you were of us, you wouldn't have left. The fact that you did shows you weren't.
"John" (actually an anonymous gnostic author) was wrong. I am a former Christian. I really believed in God and his "son" Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit. I prayed to god many times a day, I fasted, I went to church and "small group" every week. I made "godly, Christian" friends, and dated "godly, Christian" women. I "shared my faith" with "unbelievers," I went on mission trips, offered to pray for people, and even posted on Christian internet boards (including this one). I was truly a Christian. I truly believed. Now I'm an atheist. Deconversions happen.
There is a cardinal doctorine in the bible that is ignored in this whole discussion. Christian Theology has been degraded these days to the point that a lot of people who would claim to be Christians have no clue of the basic beliefs taught in the bible. People are saved through Grace alone. As much as you hear it today we do not decide to become Christians in any way at all. The bible states that we are chosen of God and furthermore it states we were chosen before the foundation of the world. The other side of this coin is that since it's God that chooses us and saves us it is also God that brings us through to glory. A true Christian can no more decide not to be a Christian any more than an non Christian can decide to become a Christian through his own will.
Those who profess to be Christians and then decide not to be were NEVER Christians in the first place. This is a very common happening today because of the weakness of Christian teaching coming from the pulpits of the land.
Last edited by lucknow; 11-22-2011 at 03:08 PM..
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