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Old 08-13-2010, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
180 posts, read 217,808 times
Reputation: 65

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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
This is a very good question! These are actually the kind of questions I began to ask before I finally lost my faith in the bible God.

To answer your question, the bible God is supposedly omnipotent and all knowing (this would mean that the bible existed in God's head before Adam and Eve). He also created "everything". Well, if one is omnipotent/all knowing (and the creator of all things), NOTHING truly has "free will"; for EVERYTHING is the imagination, idea, design, and implementation of a sole supreme deity. Now, if NOTHING has free will, "judgement day" just doesn't make any sense; none at all.

As for the Christian belief in one God; that is actually a mistake. In Genesis it clearly states "Let us make man in our image". Chistians today believe that "us/our" was talking about the holy trinity. WRONG!!!

In the hebrew bible (a MUCH older version of the bible than King James) the word "Elohim" is used for God. Elohim is a plural word (Eloah is singular). This is why "us/our" is used instead of "me/my". The singular God in the King James version was a bad translation (one of MANY bad translations).

With that said, there are quite a few books of the bible that were taken out of the bible by the Romans (because they told "too much"). The bottom line here is that most American Christians have NO CLUE what they are actually following. None at all. The sad part is that many of these followers are soooooo afraid of landing on some devil's BBQ grill that they choose to be ignorant and not question their faith.
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:39 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,470,051 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Puts on Christian believer hat.

The word of God existed before man was created.

After man was created, the Word was written in the form of the Bible.

Not even Roman6 could argue that the Gospels were written before the 1st century but, certainly, theology implies that the knowledge of what was going to be in the gospels existed in the mind of God before He even said 'Never mind that the sun isn't ready yet - Lights! Sound!! Action!!".

In that sense - in unwritten form, certainly the Bible existed before Adam. For that matter, so did the Quran, the Book of Mormon and 'Harry Potter and the money - spinner'.
Getting warmer, but not yet on the mark, and deviating left.

The Word is written in heaven. It was written by God the Word who inscribed tablets in heaven for the angels to read and know what was to befall men on earth, and so that the angels could be a part of serving Him by binding and loosening the powers in the appointed seasons, for men, below, so that the Word was kept.

Enoch saw those tablets in heaven and read them, and is with the angels in heaven "keeping" those words: in other words, Enoch is a part of the heavenly ministers who know what is written and "keep" it to what is, within its bounds, at the times and seasons appointed.

Every day is inscribed on those tablets, written in heaven, and its events are already recorded there, reveals Enoch.
In Daniel 10:21, the angel comes to Daniel and tells Him that he was sent when Daniel began to pray, but the prince/sar of Persia -the heavenly ruler over Persia -withstood him, but Michael came to bind that sar with him; and so Israel below was loosed by Cyrus, the king of Persia below. The angel tells Daniel that he will show Daniel what is written in the Scripture of Truth =the heavenly tablets, written by God the Word for the angels to read, concerning the race of Adam on earth below, from the beginning to the end of the present creation.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel/messenger which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:55 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,470,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
T

As for the Christian belief in one God; that is actually a mistake. In Genesis it clearly states "Let us make man in our image". Chistians today believe that "us/our" was talking about the holy trinity. WRONG!!!
The "us" is correct, for the triune YHWH speaks by His Word, who is the second Person in YHWH Elohim.
Deut 6:4 disproves your claim; "Hear O Israel, YHWH [thy] Elohym is one/echad YHWH".

Adam [Genesis 5:2] is one Adam, also, and many persons are in the one Adam. Only three Persons are in the One YHWH, and only one Person in the One YHWH is ever seen by men or angels, and that is the Person of God the Word who is come in flesh of second Man creation and who was to come [Romans 5:14] and in whose very bodily image [tupos -Romans 5:14] Adam was made.
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Wherever I go...
396 posts, read 734,335 times
Reputation: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
from the beginning to the end of the present creation.
Ok... but see, we're back at the same place. That makes everything preordained - which means there is no free will.

If there is no free will, then how can we be punished for sins we are, in essence, forced to commit by them having been determined beforehand?

Where is the free will in any of this? Where was Adam & Eve's free will? Never mind the entire concept of punishing someone's children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren ad infinitum for something they didn't do or have any say in.

Would ANY of you punish your grandkids because your kids were bad before the grandkids were even a twinkle in your child's eye? Is there a sane person anywhere on earth who would do that?

So again, where is the free will? We're not only punished from birth for things we had nothing to do with... but our destiny is already written, and no matter how much we think we're making a different choice, our OWN choice, we're not. We're doing exactly what has already been decided for us. Whether we're ending up in "heaven" or in "hell," is already decided. We have no actual choices.

How is this logical? How does this even jive remotely with the supposed "gift" of free will?
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:08 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,470,051 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsy View Post
Ok... but see, we're back at the same place. That makes everything preordained - which means there is no free will.

If there is no free will, then how can we be punished for sins we are, in essence, forced to commit by them having been determined beforehand?

Where is the free will in any of this? Where was Adam & Eve's free will? Never mind the entire concept of punishing someone's children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren ad infinitum for something they didn't do or have any say in.

Would ANY of you punish your grandkids because your kids were bad before the grandkids were even a twinkle in your child's eye? Is there a sane person anywhere on earth who would do that?

So again, where is the free will? We're not only punished from birth for things we had nothing to do with... but our destiny is already written, and no matter how much we think we're making a different choice, our OWN choice, we're not. We're doing exactly what has already been decided for us. Whether we're ending up in "heaven" or in "hell," is already decided. We have no actual choices.

How is this logical? How does this even jive remotely with the supposed "gift" of free will?
Do you really want to learn the answers to your questions, or are you already convinced that you have the right answers to the wrong questions?
If you were serious, then I would take you up on answering your questions, biblically and in truth; but if you are only shooting off at what you think is injustice, and think there are no answers for, then I have no interest in a conversation which would take a lot of my time to interact with you about.
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Wherever I go...
396 posts, read 734,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Do you really want to learn the answers to your questions, or are you already convinced that you have the right answers to the wrong questions?
If you were serious, then I would take you up on answering your questions, biblically and in truth; but if you are only shooting off at what you think is injustice, and think there are no answers for, then I have no interest in a conversation which would take a lot of my time to interact with you about.
I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want an answer... otherwise I'd have dismissed it as ridiculousness given how the idea was presented originally.

If the answer boils down to "God works in mysterious ways," then it's probably best to just say that upfront and leave it at that. I find that type of response to be illogical and a cop-out - a way of explaining gaping holes in religious teachings. A way to soothe the masses into conformity. So if that is the proverbial bottom line, then yes, conversing with me would honestly be a waste of your time.

I would hope there's more to it than that. Some key piece of this that I'm missing. As yet, I've not seen anything that explains the apparent absence of free will in a preordained existence. But if such an explanation exists, I'm interested in discussing it.

Please understand though that it WILL be a discussion. I have strong beliefs about God... people mistake my disdain for religion with a lack of faith in God. Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply do not accept the concept of blind obedience to someone else's interpretation of God's will. So while I am interested in hearing this all explained, that does not mean I won't challenge every statement you make if it does not make sense to me. Not because I am trying to brush off your beliefs, or pick a fight, or disrespect what you believe, or change your mind - but because this is how I learn, and this is how I incorporate new information into my world view. I take what makes sense, what seems logical, what seems to fit together and fit with my observations of the world around me... and I challenge things that don't.

If you're ok with that, I'd be very interested... if not, I understand and appreciate the time you've taken already.
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:30 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,144,873 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmac112 View Post
The Bible didn't exist before Adam and Eve.God might have had the idea beforehand, but none of it was written before the prophets wrote it.
Perhaps that is why god created man, unable to find a publisher willing to accept his idea he needed to create man so that he could have an literary agent.

I'm sorry I couldn't help myself.
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Wherever I go...
396 posts, read 734,335 times
Reputation: 715
@yeshuasavedme:

I mentioned in the original post that if need be, I'd discuss this in private messages. I remain concerned that a discussion of this nature could get hugely sidetracked by comments not specifically relating to the topic.

If you are up for discussing this with me, perhaps we could "move" the discussion to a blog entry - that way the conversation could remain public and people who are interested could follow along, but we'd have a tighter reign on comments which are not productive to the conversation.

I suspect this topic has the potential to cause massive headaches for the moderators, which is what made me reluctant to even create this thread to begin with.

I asked the original question because I have an interest in the answer - not because I want a flame war or a "debate for the sake of debate." I am just concerned that such a discussion may not be possible if participants are constantly pulled off track by additional comments.

So please let me know if you want to "move" this elsewhere (assuming you're willing to continue the conversation) and I can ask a moderator to close this thread with a link to a blog entry.

Thanks
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Old 08-14-2010, 03:47 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,177 posts, read 26,290,358 times
Reputation: 27919
urbancharlottes ideas are intriguing.....mystics are also.
Play with combining the two if you want a real headache
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Old 08-14-2010, 08:09 AM
 
409 posts, read 400,319 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsy View Post
Yup, see, that's where I keep losing the thread of this idea... if God already knows everything that's going to happen, and was able to compose a book (even mentally) about the actions various individuals would take, the conversations they'd have, the decisions they'd make... then that becomes pre-destination, and wipes out the entire concept of free will. It means that not only did God create us knowing most of us would end up burning in hell for eternity, but that he basically set us up to fail at a game we can't possibly win.

None of which makes any sense.

The entire reason we supposedly have sin is because Adam & Eve ate the apple, tempted by the snake. But if they were already destined to eat the apple, and be cast out, then how much free will did they actually ever have to begin with?

If we can't possibly make any choices for ourselves which will lead to an outcome other than the one God already knows... then there actually is no free will. Which means there is no such thing as sin because not a one of us apparently has a choice which path we're going to follow.

I think I have a headache now. Or my brain went 'splodey.
The reason it doesn't make sense is because God is love.
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