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I'm pretty old and from my observation, most people are exactly where they belong, based on the decisions they have made along the way. Yes, some people have to start from more difficult circumstances but overcoming obstacles builds character. I grew up in lower middle class, blue collar area. The people were salt of the earth. That said, they had no ambition beyond going to work in the steel mill as their parents and grandparents did. In turn, this attitude was passed down to their children. The steel mills closed and they were left with nothing, most of them found a way to live off the government for years but unfortunately never improved their skill set to make them valuable to other employers. On the other hand, my parents valued education. I was expected to go on to an institute of higher learning and doing so allowed me to leave that hell hole (Youngstown, Ohio). Of all my friends, only one (and he was the one who appeared to be the most unlikely) made the same choice, others pretty much became bums by the time they were 25. We all had exactly the same opportunities for an education....we all went to the same schools, had the same teachers, same guidance councilors, etc. But they decided to work in the steel mills and make that good money right out of high school. 6-7 years later the mills were gone. All of them chose to hold fast....stay in the area and the ones that are still alive are still there today.....and still complaining about how unfair things have been. Fact is, their life would have turned out very different had they got an education above high school and left a dying area! They made their choices and they suffer the consequences. Do I have empathy? Not really these days. For years I tried to encourage them to get an education/trade and it fell on deaf ears.
Now along the way, like most other people, I faced a lot of obstacles. I worked 2 jobs and went to University full time and......had a wife and children. The sacrifice was hard as hell.....but not impossible. It was a choice that paid long-term dividends. My friends could never see the big picture. We make choices and choices have consequences. For the most part you make your own breaks by the decisions you make!
So you can't see the advantage you had over your peers? Now imagine that you came from a household that not only didn't value an education, but actually feared it, dismissed it and accused you of thinking you're trying to get above yourself?
Do you think everyone has the strength of character to go against family and community? Do you fault people for not having the foresight, the long term view to recognize the ending of a way of life that sustained families for generations? Did you yourself realize it at the tender age of 17 or 18, or did you get lucky that you chose another path before that happened?
So you can't see the advantage you had over your peers? Now imagine that you came from a household that not only didn't value an education, but actually feared it, dismissed it and accused you of thinking you're trying to get above yourself?
Do you think everyone has the strength of character to go against family and community? Do you fault people for not having the foresight, the long term view to recognize the ending of a way of life that sustained families for generations? Did you yourself realize it at the tender age of 17 or 18, or did you get lucky that you chose another path before that happened?
Education.
When I graduated high school, my family was just happy that I managed to do that. No one suggested that I try to get into college. No one told me that you can get loans and grants that will pay for it. It was presented to me conceptually as, "Either you have a rich family who pays for you to go to college, or else you come out of high school a straight A student or star athlete, qualifying you for scholarships." It was just assumed by everyone that my lack of enthusiasm and struggles in high school meant that college was not for me.
But then, too, no one took me seriously about the health problems I was having or got me appropriate medical treatment, everyone thought I was just a bad kid BSing about why I was struggling. I was in a house full of contaminants I was severely allergic to and had repeated severe sinus infections causing massive pain, I could barely see straight day after day. Antibiotics could have straightened that out fast instead of months of suffering and falling so far behind in classes that I was utterly lost and gave up. Nah, just a bad kid. Will probably be dead before her 21st birthday. Oh, well.
But I did end up going to college. Once I got my first "real job" (out of retail/foodservice and into banking/accounting) I found out they'd partially reimburse college for relevant studies, so I looked into it. With a combo of that, grants, and some loans (not a ton)...I got my degree in accounting & finance from a business college, which I chose because they promised focused studies and not much in the way of general fluff requirements. I was a 4.0 student even while working full time and parenting two kids.
I tried to give my sons all of the opportunities, resources, guidance and encouragement that I never had. And both of them failed to put their best efforts into making anything of those gifts. And sure, there are factors involved there...but I did everything I could to help them access solutions to every obstacle they encountered along the way. I am torn on how to weave these life stories into a philosophy because I feel like while I'm a little resentful at times on how my parents raised me...I like who I turned out to be. And having to find my own way, meant that I saw and seized opportunities and have become successful. With some luck, sure, but there is no amount of good luck that a person cannot squander if they don't have the will to make something of it. I had that will, because I had to fight for it. My kids didn't, so they take any moments of luck or opportunity for granted, squander them, and just assume that the world will ALWAYS give them another chance, no matter how many they throw away.
Yeah, sometimes I really do think I spoiled my kids, though I damn sure did not mean to. They did have chores, I don't think I totally pampered and coddled them. But there were probably times that I helped too much in solving problems that they needed to find their own solutions to. Saving them when they needed to save themselves. I'm still struggling with them, and that.
I want so much to be able to believe in a society where people respond more to carrots than sticks. I'm not comfortable with being a "stick" person...I don't like suffering. I don't want to think that children need suffering to "build character" and be functioning adults. I have a distaste for the concept. But frankly that might be a "me problem" because damned if a lot of people don't seem to NEED a certain amount of hardship to gain resilience and find their way? Like if some do not experience painful consequences for their choices, they become adults who think they should be able to do whatever they want with an entitlement to zero accountability? I don't think that any decent parent sets out to create that kind of person. And yet.
So you can't see the advantage you had over your peers? Now imagine that you came from a household that not only didn't value an education, but actually feared it, dismissed it and accused you of thinking you're trying to get above yourself?
Do you think everyone has the strength of character to go against family and community? Do you fault people for not having the foresight, the long term view to recognize the ending of a way of life that sustained families for generations? Did you yourself realize it at the tender age of 17 or 18, or did you get lucky that you chose another path before that happened?
I get your logic here and I agree with it to a point. Patterns can get set subconsciously on a level and it may be operating on some level in the background. I can see that logic to a point.
I just don't see the bolded happening in this modern era, 1950 in Appalachia perhaps, but I don't know. I come from a very humble background, didn't have much growing up. Both my parents worked in the food and bar business. We weren't swimming in money. Working class people, no doubt.
College wasn't discussed much, I do one time remember my dad telling me that if I ever became a bartender, he'd break my legs, so maybe that was the "talk" we had. We certainly weren't discussing which ivy league was the better one to attend, if you follow me here.
I ask sincerely that do we not have any agency or autonomy over our lives? If you extrapolate the logic here it tells me that once you are born into a station we can never move up or laterally at least. I'm not being judgy here, even though my OP was harshly worded as I've apologized for that already, was cranky and read a bunch of BS on POC forum and was feeling snarly.
How far do we take the I was brought into a bad situation before it starts to become a mental handicap? I suppose for some it does and that's their operating MO, I guess.
My OP was really from a framework of that asshat at the end of the bar running his mouth off blaming the world for everything, without much internal review of his own life and what he is and isn't responsible for, having a basic middle of the road background. It wasn't about some kid born into a brothel without a shred of any kind of proper upbring.
Last edited by Chowhound; 03-15-2024 at 12:54 PM..
I get your logic here and I agree with it to a point. Patterns can get set subconsciously on a level and it may be operating on some level in the background. I can see that logic to a point.
I just don't see the bolded happening in this modern era, 1950 in Appalachia perhaps, but I don't know. I come from a very humble background, didn't have much growing up. Both my parents worked in the food and bar business. We weren't swimming in money. Working class people, no doubt.
College wasn't discussed much, I do one time remember my dad telling me that if I ever became a bartender, he'd break my legs, so maybe that was the "talk" we had. We certainly weren't discussing which ivy league was the better one to attend, if you follow me here.
I ask sincerely that do we not have any agency or autonomy over our lives? If you extrapolate the logic here it tells me that once you are born into a station we can never move up or laterally at least. I'm not being judgy here, even though my OP was harshly worded as I've apologized for that already, was cranky and read a bunch of BS on POC forum and was feeling snarly.
How far do we take the I was brought into a bad situation before it starts to become a mental handicap? I suppose for some it does and that's their operating MO, I guess.
My OP was really from a framework of that asshat at the end of the bar running his mouth off blaming the world for everything, without much internal review of his own life and what he is and isn't responsible for, having a basic middle of the road background. It wasn't about some kid born into a brothel without a shred of any kind of proper upbring.
Quick question (I'll try to keep it brief I swear!)...
Do you think that the young ones growing up today have perhaps a wee bit more obligation to do something productive or right with their life paths, because they have the powerful tool of the internet available?
I think back about the choices I made and a lot of it was just that I had no idea how to practically go about making better ones. I did not get prenatal care for the first 4 months of my first pregnancy because I did not realize I needed it. I thought you just went about life until the water broke then get to a hospital and have a baby! I did not have a Google I could just ask questions of. As I said before, I didn't even understand that college was an option until I was 24 and my employer would help pay for it.
I often think about how powerful I might have been with access to all this information. I've tapped the internet to help me figure out countless practical things, from car repair to pet diets, since the early 2000s when my household first got online. Hell, some schools like MIT offer their course materials free to the public online!
It’s good that you realize this. Also keep in mind that when people (I mean mainly conservative white people) use buzz words like the one in your title, they’re typically taking shots at impoverished people. It’s their own fault that they’re poor, while wealthy white people born into upper/middle class environments have nothing to do with the distribution of wealth throughout society. If poor people would just “work harder”, especially poor Blacks and Latinos, they would be well off just like people like you.
For those people, yes it IS someone else’s fault. The fault lies with those taking advantage of the system and lying about it being fair, all while acquiring all the money and resources in their good ole boy networks and preaching to others about learning “personal responsibility”.
You are buying fully into the victim mentality.
Sure people have different handicaps, just like horses in a handicap race, but some people do what they can with what they have. Others whine and blame others.
In a corporate job, you see the difference all the time. Its not the difference between being rich and being poor, but it is the difference between achieving things, solving problems and not.
Quick question (I'll try to keep it brief I swear!)...
Do you think that the young ones growing up today have perhaps a wee bit more obligation to do something productive or right with their life paths, because they have the powerful tool of the internet available?
I think back about the choices I made and a lot of it was just that I had no idea how to practically go about making better ones. I did not get prenatal care for the first 4 months of my first pregnancy because I did not realize I needed it. I thought you just went about life until the water broke then get to a hospital and have a baby! I did not have a Google I could just ask questions of. As I said before, I didn't even understand that college was an option until I was 24 and my employer would help pay for it.
I often think about how powerful I might have been with access to all this information. I've tapped the internet to help me figure out countless practical things, from car repair to pet diets, since the early 2000s when my household first got online. Hell, some schools like MIT offer their course materials free to the public online!
I grew up solidly before and after technology.
I have in the past worked in technology, programming, networking.
I say that because I think it's an advantage. I think for all of the good of the internet, I can list just as many bad things that technology and the internet has brought.
In regard to the bolded, I'm not sure the obligation part of it, I think that having info is great, really, but you ever heard of the term "analysis paralysis" I think young people have too much thrown at them, and I say that with empathy. I truly feel bad for young people, for all of their so called advantages growing up with tech. I'm not some out of touch mid 50s guy, I understand technology much more so than my buddies that I grew up with.
The internet is great when used with objective understanding of it. Social media is another subject that I could rant about, but you get the point.
You say obligation to do something productive. Still not sure about that, perhaps, then that now becomes pressure, which is what I assume is really your point.
I see articles online about quiet quitting, the Genz crowd putting work life balance forward and a slew of similar things. I don't mean this as an insult, so not sure how to reconcile those ideas I see around me with young people being obligated to do more productive things.
I get your logic here and I agree with it to a point. Patterns can get set subconsciously on a level and it may be operating on some level in the background. I can see that logic to a point.
I just don't see the bolded happening in this modern era, 1950 in Appalachia perhaps, but I don't know. I come from a very humble background, didn't have much growing up. Both my parents worked in the food and bar business. We weren't swimming in money. Working class people, no doubt.
College wasn't discussed much, I do one time remember my dad telling me that if I ever became a bartender, he'd break my legs, so maybe that was the "talk" we had. We certainly weren't discussing which ivy league was the better one to attend, if you follow me here.
I ask sincerely that do we not have any agency or autonomy over our lives? If you extrapolate the logic here it tells me that once you are born into a station we can never move up or laterally at least. I'm not being judgy here, even though my OP was harshly worded as I've apologized for that already, was cranky and read a bunch of BS on POC forum and was feeling snarly.
How far do we take the I was brought into a bad situation before it starts to become a mental handicap? I suppose for some it does and that's their operating MO, I guess.
My OP was really from a framework of that asshat at the end of the bar running his mouth off blaming the world for everything, without much internal review of his own life and what he is and isn't responsible for, having a basic middle of the road background. It wasn't about some kid born into a brothel without a shred of any kind of proper upbring.
https://www.clevelandfed.org/publica...y-and-mobility
There's a chart on income changes across generations. 33% of those born in the bottom quintile stay there. 24% get into the 4th, 18% get into the 3rd, 13% get into the 2nd and 12% get into the top quintile. Of those born in the top, 35% stay there, 25% drop to the 2nd, 19% drop to the middle, 13% to the 4th and 8% to the bottom quintile.
The true handicap that is really out of your control is health.
I have in the past worked in technology, programming, networking.
I say that because I think it's an advantage. I think for all of the good of the internet, I can list just as many bad things that technology and the internet has brought.
In regard to the bolded, I'm not sure the obligation part of it, I think that having info is great, really, but you ever heard of the term "analysis paralysis" I think young people have too much thrown at them, and I say that with empathy. I truly feel bad for young people, for all of their so called advantages growing up with tech. I'm not some out of touch mid 50s guy, I understand technology much more so than my buddies that I grew up with.
The internet is great when used with objective understanding of it. Social media is another subject that I could rant about, but you get the point.
You say obligation to do something productive. Still not sure about that, perhaps, then that now becomes pressure, which is what I assume is really your point.
I see articles online about quiet quitting, the Genz crowd putting work life balance forward and a slew of similar things. I don't mean this as an insult, so not sure how to reconcile those ideas I see around me with young people being obligated to do more productive things.
Yeah I wasn't really wanting to load the thought with any particular...I dunno, judgment. I do agree that analysis paralysis and a host of other negative things have come of all the good, bad and ugly of tech and the internet.
Guess it's just the part of me that agrees with your original sentiment (I'm conflicted overall) gets frustrated with some who willfully remain helpless or ignorant when anyone could totally just go Google that. Not about controversial subjects, just about how to do basic things and take positive steps for their own empowerment and functionality. Before the internet, you didn't know what you didn't know and if no one was there to teach your or ask...sometimes it was harder to find any path forward.
https://www.clevelandfed.org/publica...y-and-mobility
There's a chart on income changes across generations. 33% of those born in the bottom quintile stay there. 24% get into the 4th, 18% get into the 3rd, 13% get into the 2nd and 12% get into the top quintile. Of those born in the top, 35% stay there, 25% drop to the 2nd, 19% drop to the middle, 13% to the 4th and 8% to the bottom quintile.
The true handicap that is really out of your control is health.
I figured that a certain amount of people can rise up and sink in some cases. We have a friend of a friend that their kids grew up upper middle class and one the kids is a homeless drug addict.
One could certainly say that was a downward move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Yeah I wasn't really wanting to load the thought with any particular...I dunno, judgment. I do agree that analysis paralysis and a host of other negative things have come of all the good, bad and ugly of tech and the internet.
Guess it's just the part of me that agrees with your original sentiment (I'm conflicted overall) gets frustrated with some who willfully remain helpless or ignorant when anyone could totally just go Google that. Not about controversial subjects, just about how to do basic things and take positive steps for their own empowerment and functionality. Before the internet, you didn't know what you didn't know and if no one was there to teach your or ask...sometimes it was harder to find any path forward.
Yeah, hard to comment on the bold, might be an extension of procrastination, don't know, I know for me procrastination is pretty bad at times, to a fault to be honest. I'll get back to you later with more details on that.
The concept of fairness and equality is the issue. These things don't actually exist. So the whole argument of success based on one person being on third base and the other on home base is a red herring. You were born however you were born and must make the best of what you were given. There is no other conclusion.
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