New Amtrak Routes (Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati: taxi, maintenance, price)

[osu1978]

Dublin is getting in on the game.

https://columbusunderground.com/dubl...l-station-bw1/

[PerryMason614]

Really what they should do is have a rail ferry so you can bring your car along. That might be something that would make this enticing. But again, this still wouldn't work downtown. You need more space to be able to pull that off.

Airport is where it belongs.

[james777]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Weirdly enough, the same holds true in the Northeast Corridor as people also fly in from all over there too.

There isn't non-stop airline service between any combination of the 3Cs and the flights that do exist are lengthy and make one stop or connection, with fares well in excess of $300 typically. Contrast that with three hour rail trips from CIN to CLE for around $60 each roundtrip, city center to city center.

Intraregional rail travel will be a new concept for Ohio and while it certainly won't replace the primary fixation on driving, it will provide options for those who see the benefit, as well as those who will appreciate the ability to travel from one urban environment to another for leisure travel too. Chicagoland's METRA service is a model of what can be accomplished in Ohio over time.

In transit-stunted Florida where the automobile is king for intrastate travel, the new Brightline train service between Miami and Orlando with intermediary stops in Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton and West Palm Beach the service carried over 2 million passengers last month. It's not a gigantic leap to predict the 3C's route alone to carry a similar ridership with MSA population numbers from the three Ohio metro areas almost equal to what is seen in the two Florida MSAs.

As I read over this again, I see that you say that there is no non-stop airline service between the three Cs. I find that hard to believe, so I searched on Travelocity. Guess what? There is no non-stop airline service between the three Cs!!!! In this capitalist society, if there were any demand, the airlines would provide it. So why are they building this thing? Why are they even thinking of building this boondoggle?

Have they ever done any studies to estimate demand? If there is little to no demand, why don't they spend the money on improving service where there are plenty of riders and the service is lousy? Like in the Northeast Corridor.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by james777

As I read over this again, I see that you say that there is no non-stop airline service between the three Cs. I find that hard to believe, so I searched on Travelocity. Guess what? There is no non-stop airline service between the three Cs!!!! In this capitalist society, if there were any demand, the airlines would provide it. So why are they building this thing? Why are they even thinking of building this boondoggle?

Have they ever done any studies to estimate demand? If there is little to no demand, why don't they spend the money on improving service where there are plenty of riders and the service is lousy? Like in the Northeast Corridor.

How would they know the demand if it hasn't been provided? Also air travel between the three C's would differ with rail travel. The air travel option provides the opportunity to reach a suburban location minus the amenities most would travel to reach, then requiring in all but one case (CLE) the necessity of renting a car to reach the central core. There's also the time allotment for airport security and lengthy boarding/deboarding processes and checked baggage handling. The rail option provides travel to the city core and minus the need to rent a car if that is your likely destination. Furthermore service in the Northeast Corridor is far from "lousy" with hourly departures much of the day between DC and Boston with few major delays (unlike air travel) at fares well below air travel and comfortable seating with wi-fi along with no security lines/pre-checks and baggage restrictions, or lengthy boarding/deboarding processes.

[Karl Lagos]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

How would they know the demand if it hasn't been provided? Also air travel between the three C's would differ with rail travel. The air travel option provides the opportunity to reach a suburban location minus the amenities most would travel to reach, then requiring in all but one case (CLE) the necessity of renting a car to reach the central core. There's also the time allotment for airport security and lengthy boarding/deboarding processes and checked baggage handling. The rail option provides travel to the city core and minus the need to rent a car if that is your likely destination. Furthermore service in the Northeast Corridor is far from "lousy" with hourly departures much of the day between DC and Boston with few major delays (unlike air travel) at fares well below air travel and comfortable seating with wi-fi along with no security lines/pre-checks and baggage restrictions, or lengthy boarding/deboarding processes.

Airlines have not supplied a direct flight between Cincy and Cleveland because there is no demand. I think Ultimate Air Shuttle used to have a direct flight between Cincy and Cleveland. They changed their model though. As we discussed earlier in the thread, as an example, there are 10 daily flights between Cincy and Chicago (likely the same for Cleveland) because the demand is there. Obviously Columbus is way too close to Cincy and Cleveland to even think about air travel.

The current train station in Cleveland is downtown by the Browns Stadium/RR Hall of fame. The proposed new 2nd station is the Airport. Cincy's station is close to downtown. You need ground transportation to go anywhere. The proposed new 2nd station is Sharonville a suburb. Regarding Dayton and Cbus it is still unkown where the stations will be.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Karl Lagos

The current train station in Cleveland is downtown by the Browns Stadium/RR Hall of fame. The proposed new 2nd station is the Airport. Cincy's station is close to downtown. You need ground transportation to go anywhere. The proposed new 2nd station is Sharonville a suburb. Regarding Dayton and Cbus it is still unkown where the stations will be.

The Cincinnati station is on the west end of downtown and can easily be connected by a circulating shuttle service. Cleveland as mentioned is in the downtown area and the potential Columbus station would be attached to the convention center downtown. Columbus is the only major city in the US not serviced by Amtrak. Toledo is blessed with a downtown station and will be a major perk connecting to Detroit or Cleveland with more frequent convenient scheduling versus 3am as currently serviced.

[kpl1228]

Originally Posted by Karl Lagos

They are not going to commute via the train because once you depart the train you still need a car to get to where you are working.

I used to think this too, until I started using Uber on city visits. No car needed in any city anymore, and to be fair, before that, taxicabs could do the job. It's always been a weak argument in a city with solid car shuttling availability. But, nothing beats the convenience of your own wheels when on business.
The more consistent argument has been the reliability of rail times in inclement weather, and how Ohio will need to adjust to this idea of commuting by rail in an era where the car is so convenient and right there. If you have to stick to a hard work-based time schedule, and will not be staying in a hotel the night prior, I can't see anyone who's dealt with trains anywhere nationally counting on this 100%.
Amtrak outside of the east coast is largely an INTERstate transportation system. This needs to continue as such, with The Three C's acting simply as stops on an expanded national system, not as a INTRAstate commuter train. It won't be running every hour, folks.
Someone mentioned the Chicago METRA model which is apt as METRA delivers passengers from distances equaling Columbus to Cincinnati, but the Three C's are simply too car-friendly, unlike Chicago (parking, tolls, traffic, etc). People take METRA because they have to (a daily commuter car to and from Chicago is almost as bad as NYC) and not because they love METRA. And METRA 's schedule is designed for commuters: lots of choices of stations and times. The Three C's rail ain't gonna be that.
I love trains and like many, it will be a novelty to try, but that novelty and occasional, sporadic use is no business model for long-term sustainability.
If anyone uses it for business, I'd be pleased but sort of surprised if decent numbers happen.
Families in the summer will give it some traffic for sure, though how much remains to be seen.
It can work. But Amtrak needs to be willing to let it take a hit for a decade and not pull the plug after a year or two.
Cars in Ohio are too easy to use, the interstates and other roads too solid and quick and dependable, parking even in downtowns in Ohio relatively reasonable, and all of it way easier than depending on a limited train schedule for anything other than a unique outing or trip. And I love trains and rail, and as a Democrat am all over this, but I'm also sixty and have ridden enough urban rail in this country to know the limitations and major issues with any rail model like this away from the East Coast. Fingers crossed, but doubtfully crossed. After all, Amtrak is a different animal than regional commuter rail, and that's a good thing in this case. It's not suburb-to-city transportation we're talking about here.
For those of us who take an interest in this stuff it's all fun to speculate, but if you think most of the state's excited about this as a way to travel across the state I'd have to laugh.

[PerryMason614]

Originally Posted by kpl1228

I used to think this too, until I started using Uber on city visits. No car needed in any city anymore, and to be fair, before that, taxicabs could do the job. It's always been a weak argument in a city with solid car shuttling availability. But, nothing beats the convenience of your own wheels when on business.

Typical, since people don't understand money and think it just drops down from heaven. Why would I want to spend 50 bucks on Uber or taxis when I have my own car? $60 for the Choo choo, $50 for uber. This is getting to be an expensive trip to Cincinnati. Or, I could just put $35 of gas in my car and drive.

[PerryMason614]

A rail ferry would also be a way to make electric cars practical.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by ferraris

I think hybrid work is actually going to make such commutes more feasible.
I think "cars competing with trains" isn't the right way to frame this. Nobody is expecting Ohioans to stop driving. These trains will just be another option available, which is a good thing.

Bingo-Bango! This is the dead on approach we need toward establishing rail. I am pining for Amtrak in Ohio and I'm glad, finally, the ball is moving, albeit very slowly... But I was LOVE for Brightline to moving into Ohio as they have so successfully done in Florida with their new Miami-to-Orland (airport) higher speed service; and their coming Las Vegas-to-LA (electrified) high-speed service.

Contrary to the negative comments of above posters, this country is pining for some kind of alternative to simply cars, planes and passenger buses (ugh, which are now being kicked out of downtowns and where, these days, passengers must wait on street corners for pickups in a lot of big cities). Rail, with its fixed routes, high capacity, greater roominess and comfort (including hot meal service), and speed, is an extremely attractive alternative, especially in more dense, shorter-haul (350 miles or less) regions like Ohio. Imagine, alone, the popularity of trains traveling to such major sporting events as Ohio State football games, Browns-Steelers or Browns-Bengals games.

Build it, and they most certainly will come.