Which of the three C's do you think will be the most dominant power in all of Ohio by 2050? (Columbus: fit in, 2014)

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

I think you're being far too limiting with your definition of what makes culture and what might change it. What exists now will always be, just perhaps more technologically advanced, is not necessarily true. There are plenty of cultural institutions and themes that have long since died out, not only in the mainstream, but in the niche markets. Do I think people will stop appreciating art and music? Of course not. But to say that nothing new could be added to the spectrum of culture is just silly. Columbus will likely never have a world-class traditional art museum. But it certainly has the ability to gain something world-class that uses technology in new ways to appreciate art.

I think I'm being limiting because as humans we have shown ourselves to be far more limited than you ascribe. Music still follows the basic chord patterns and meters in popular use over 300 years ago. People will still want to hear a Beethoven 5 or Mahler 1 live 35 years from now. They will still want to see Hamlet or be in the same room as a Monet, to Columbus' credit, they will still want to wear designer clothes. Cultural institutions that have died out tend to be in the popular arts (roller rinks anybody?) rather than the elitist arts.

[immersedincincy]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

Cleveland is definitely leading the 3c's in regards to revitalization of its downtown urban core.

No, it is not.

[costello_musicman]

^would you say Cincy then?

Cleveland is at around $5 billion since 2010 into Downtown.

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by costello_musicman

^would you say Cincy then?

Cleveland is at around $5 billion since 2010 into Downtown.

I'm not sure how you can get to $5 billion downtown, unless you include projects at University Circle, which means that Cincy's Uptown projects would also qualify.

It's really actually remarkable how similar the development costs of the two cities has been over the last few years. Both casinos cost $400 million, the Banks and the Flats as developments actually have very similar cost structures thus far. Both city's art museums are undergoing renovations/expansions that are costing well over $100 million. Christ Hospital in Cincinnati and the UH Seidman Cancer Center expansions are each costing $260 million plus.

I think all told that Cleveland is indeed ahead in the dollar count, mainly because the two biggest projects you're likely including in your list, the federally and state funded $730 million Inner Belt bridge, and the federally funded $500 million VA expansion, don't have equivalent projects in Cincinnati at the moment. If the Brent Spence bridge replacement finally goes through, however, and it pretty much has to at some point in the near future, then the combined money spent on the two cities' cores would be pretty equal.

[1watertiger]

Cleveland's DT population is the largest of the 3, and also growing faster.. And to add to the above $totals, convention center , med mart and new 30 story hotel

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

Cleveland's DT population is the largest of the 3, and also growing faster.. And to add to the above $totals, convention center , med mart and new 30 story hotel

I'm sure the convention center, med mart and hotel were included in the $5 billion total as you don't get there without the $470 million or so that they cost. As for the population study you cite (or maybe just the wikipedia page that cites it,) it's largely a trick of geography and a vague definition of what downtown is that was left entirely to the cities themselves. If you look into it, you'd see that Cleveland officially counts as its downtown several neighborhoods, including the CBD, the Theater District, The Gateway District, etc.., while Cincinnati includes only the CBD. If both cities had a similar geographic size to their downtown population, meaning if Cincinnati counted OTR and Pendleton, the totals would be similar, and their growth rates would reflect this as well. Columbus counts more geographic area than Cincy, but less than Cleveland. If it extended its "downtown" boundary into Victorian Village or German Village, it would likely be a lot closer in population too.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist

I think I'm being limiting because as humans we have shown ourselves to be far more limited than you ascribe. Music still follows the basic chord patterns and meters in popular use over 300 years ago. People will still want to hear a Beethoven 5 or Mahler 1 live 35 years from now. They will still want to see Hamlet or be in the same room as a Monet, to Columbus' credit, they will still want to wear designer clothes. Cultural institutions that have died out tend to be in the popular arts (roller rinks anybody?) rather than the elitist arts.

So what hasn't happened can't ever happen? And roller rinks haven't entirely died out, nor drive-ins nor record stores. They survive in the niche. They have certainly died out in the mainstream, though, which is what I was referring to. And I haven't really said that the "elitist" arts will follow the same path, necessarily, only that the medium in which they are appreciated probably will. This is where Columbus can rise because it's probably not going to do so in the traditional formats.

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

So what hasn't happened can't ever happen? And roller rinks haven't entirely died out, nor drive-ins nor record stores. They survive in the niche. They have certainly died out in the mainstream, though, which is what I was referring to. And I haven't really said that the "elitist" arts will follow the same path, necessarily, only that the medium in which they are appreciated probably will. This is where Columbus can rise because it's probably not going to do so in the traditional formats.

I do think Columbus can rise, but part of the point I was trying to lead to is that new arts institutions typically get born from traditional roots. So for instance, in Cincinnati you have the staid and true symphony and museum, but also relatively new institutions like the Cincinnati Fringe Festival (theater), PONES Inc (dance), MadCap Puppets, North American New Opera Workshop, and OFFF Design (graphic and video arts) and Design Week that are experimenting with traditional cultural forms and innovating in their fields. Most of those newer companies or events have been recognized already on a national or even international level within their spheres. They are forming the institutions that will be important 30 years from now. I know at least in new music and theater, Cleveland has a similar head start. Think how small SXSW was in the late 1980's and early 1990's compared to what it is today.

My point here is that Columbus isn't only lacking in the old and stodgy arts compared to the other two C's, but it's falling critically behind in what will become the next great institutions because it's not investing in them, either. I actually agree with you that it shouldn't worry very much about the level of its museum or symphony, but I think it absolutely should worry about the level of its new arts institutions.

[1watertiger]

Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist

I'm sure the convention center, med mart and hotel were included in the $5 billion total as you don't get there without the $470 million or so that they cost. As for the population study you cite (or maybe just the wikipedia page that cites it,) it's largely a trick of geography and a vague definition of what downtown is that was left entirely to the cities themselves. If you look into it, you'd see that Cleveland officially counts as its downtown several neighborhoods, including the CBD, the Theater District, The Gateway District, etc.., while Cincinnati includes only the CBD. If both cities had a similar geographic size to their downtown population, meaning if Cincinnati counted OTR and Pendleton, the totals would be similar, and their growth rates would reflect this as well. Columbus counts more geographic area than Cincy, but less than Cleveland. If it extended its "downtown" boundary into Victorian Village or German Village, it would likely be a lot closer in population too.

Playhouse sq. Gateway in part of downtown along with warehouse district

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

Cleveland's DT population is the largest of the 3, and also growing faster.. And to add to the above $totals, convention center , med mart and new 30 story hotel

To be fair, it grew faster in the 2000s, but we don't know with 100% certainty what's been happening since then. Also, are we just talking about the CBD or the immediate surrounding cores?

Cleveland is getting big projects, but none of those mentioned are residential in nature. I'd actually be curious to see the residential list of the CBD and immediate surrounding neighborhoods. I know someone's put together a tally before of all Cleveland projects, but it'd be interesting to see a running tally from all 3-Cs on both residential and non-residential projects in their urban cores. I think they're all doing quite a bit.