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Incoming recruits make up a small percentage of the whole NYPD so of course that could not make a significant impact. I am talking about a giant freeze throughout the NYPD. Something that may save 30 BILLION DOLLARS.
Comparing the blackout of 2003 to the 1977 blackout is a horrible comparison. New York City was already in a crisis when the blackout occurred. The blackout just escalated everything out of control and continued through the 80's. New York City was no where near a crisis in 2003 and the police force was substantially bigger and more powerful than it was in 1977.
The only reason the residents are in control, in the low-income neighborhoods, is because cops flood their blocks all the time. I am actually surprised by the amount of crime there still is in these neighborhoods even though the area is covered with cops. The South Bronx is the poorest congressional district in the United States so I am pretty sure they are suffering from a little more than quality of life issues. I am assuming you live in the South Bronx judging by your gentrifier name Sobro. I don't know how long you have lived there, but I am assuming that you support the changes the community has made since its battle scarred era of the 1970's. Maybe you made an investment there, I don't know, but don't let that blind you from the fact that the South Bronx still suffers a ton from poverty and crime. Once the cops aren't around, the thugs will run the communities. Why? BECAUSE THERE ARE NO GODDAMN JOBS.
Bloomberg goes through a huge mess to get the Atlantic Yards project started up even though there were innumerable lawsuits. Yet, Bloomberg can't do anything to compromise with the armory project in the bronx to help create thousands of jobs. But that's just me ranting...
Comparing the 2 blackouts is actually a perfect example....it is an example of how things have changed, especially behind the scenes. There is no longer this overwhelming undercurrent of racial tension just below the surface that was a primary driver of the blackout destruction in the 70s. The mentality has changed...if that kind of destruction was just seething below the surface, and in fact if the only reason crime is not at 1990 levels or worse, is because there are 10 cops for every resident, then when the blackout occured...surely we should have seen a repeat of 1977..but alas..we did not. It should have been a total free for all..there were not enough cops to stop the destruction in 1977..and there sure aren't enough now. Instead we had neighbors helping neighbors, and people generally taking it all in stride, like any other day. If this is not indicative of a profound change in NYC, or you believe these 2 scenarios are not good comparisons...we will just agree to disagree.
Cops are not the ones running the show in NYC..if you believe a police force of 36,000 can control a population of 8 million people, 2 million commuters coming in an out each day, and an additional 45 million tourists, or a total of 55 million people in NYC in any given year, you are nuts. It is the communities that have said ENOUGH, have worked WITH police to increase safety, and it is the city that has committed to investing and improving these communities. ALL of these factors have made the city, and these lower income communities safer, not your assertion that 10 cops for every 1 resident theory.
The cops are not around as much as you think..how can they be? Lack of jobs has less to do with it...more to do with the history of extreme segregation and subsequent ghettoization of the population, everything else (i.e. crime, lack of education, jobs, bad schools etc) are just symptoms of those 2 core problems.
Clearly the Southern Bronx is still suffering from crime issues, as I have indicated. But it is no longer an issue of crime, it is now quality of life issues that are at the forefront, which is a profound change from simply crime and crime alone. It should be noted that I am a 3rd generation Mott haven resident, and live in the same building my grandparents lived, my parents was raised, and I was raised. (My "gentrifier" name is due to the cancelation of my prior name.) As a result, I am very much aware of the crime and poverty in the community, but it is LESS of an issue today, and quality of life issues are at the forefront...which is why you see middle income housing growing , major retailers entering, parks increasing, major infrastructure improvements, tree plantings, and the birthplace for the green movement in NYC (rooves, housing, jobs, etc).
As for the Armory deal that you mentioned..this is technically off topic but I will make one statement on it. How can you negotiate a deal when Ruben Diaz, and his contingent of lackies whom profess "no job is better than a job" ..in other words..we rather be hanging out and on welfare (which is what happens when you don't work) than work for a living.
We as NYC residents, should be VERY afraid of that entitlement mentality of "we deserve more because we say so, otherwise we rather have nothing" because that is ultimately why the Bronx never recovered the way other boroughs have. The retail wages paid the same as they do in every other borough in NYC, and they were never meant to support a family of 4, a mortgage, 2 cars, private schools, and vacations. The purpose of these jobs was to provide people an OPPORTUNITY to work, gain experience, earn a wage, NOT be the head of household with 3 kids. But somehow, Ruben Diaz believes these jobs should do just that..why? Because he says so and "we deserve it."
The problem? 1-We don't DESERVE anything....you earn things. You want a higher wage? It is not by extortion and claiming racism, it is by going to school and/or gaining higher paying skills (that takes WORK!). Ruben Diaz would have you believe you need do nothing, and simply sit around and demand things regardless of your education/skill set...and until you get whatever it is you want, simply hang out on welfare. 2-Ruben Diaz believes we "deserve" this living wage, and the Bronx does not want these $7.25 per hour jobs because we "deserve" better. Ok...so then why is he standing alongside all the other local merchants who DO pay $7.25 an hour but are demanding Related pay $11 per hour (or whatever the amount is)? Why is it ok for them but not Related? Furthermore, why is it ok for so many other companies/jobs in the Bronx to pay these wages? Don't we "deserve" it? Should he not be demanding it from ALL employers in the Bronx and not just Related? We "deserve" it after all..right?
I am getting the feeling that you feel that NYC is completely immune to any sort of crime increase within the next few years. That is a very ignorant and naive way to look at something especially when we are currently in one of the biggest recessions in history. You can't say that NYC will not see a trend in crime because in times like these, the future is very ambiguous.
Your argument about the blackout with racial tension as one of the main contributers to the violence is valid, but I still believe that if the police force was weak enough now and we had a blackout things cold get out of hand. Our unemployment rate is 10%, not to mention that the Bronx's unemployment rate is over 13%, and that alone is reason enough to loot things and burn things given a few years of suffering and starving.
Cops aren't running the show in NYC? Are you insane? Since Giuliani, and continuing with Bloomberg, we have focused so much on policing, we are basically a police state. I bet you can't even crack open a 40 open and smoke a J on your stoop in your neighborhood anymore without the cops harassing you. Are you trying to say all the thugs and gangsters have left NYC? Is that why we won't change back to a crime-ridden city?
Your argument is about how the mentality and racial tensions between people in NYC has changed, which has resulted in the dramatic drop in crime. My argument is that aggressive police tactics such as, stop and frisking along with the broken windows theory, that have harassed neighborhoods, such as YOURS, for the last 17 years is the main reason crime has dropped. I believe racial tensions still do exist in NYC, but not to the extent of what happened after the civil rights movement. Do you think the white yuppie moving into Harlem right next to an old time black neighbor is going to sit well with him? It certainly hasn't in many parts of Bed-Stuy at least. Those are just a few examples of racial tensions.
And, going off topic again, if you are from Mott Haven and have lived there for generations, I am assuming your personal income is not substantial. (I am not trying to get too personal here) Are you afraid of being kicked out by the hipsters and yuppies that could potentially take over the area? Or do you welcome their snobbishness with open arms like a coward.
NYC is certianly not immune to an increase in crime..who would think that? I agreed that it is just as likely for crime to go up as it is to go down this year. However, as I have stated, the reasons you have given for crime to go up this year are great, and I have heard them all before and others, which also sounded great. But at the end of the day (or rather year), crime has continued to go down despit all the "obvious" reasons it should go up. Barring any major catastrophe, I do not see the long-term decreasing crime trend changing. There would have to be a profound change from the city's mantra of making crime a top priority as well as disinvestment in communtiy's of color..none of which I see happening despite the major budget problems we have.
I do agree that Giulini's strong-arming was a deterrent, but not the long term solution for the decrease in crime. Sure it got crime down and made the stats look great for a few years, but that is not how you decrease crime sustainably. It is by involving the community and investing, as well as effective policing, all of which you have seen for years in NYC. Stop and frisks still happen, and there is a level of harassment, but what many see as harassment, others see as proactive policing to dissolve a problem BEFORE it happens. But that's for another thread.
Regarding your last comment, I am very sad that you believe: 1-An outside group entering the community is a negative. I remember when people of color moved into all white areas like the South Bronx in the 50s and 60s, and the anger/rage/attacks they were met with. According to you: "Are you afraid of being kicked out by the hipsters and yuppies that could potentially take over the area? Or do you welcome their snobbishness with open arms like a coward." That same mentality is what people of color went through all those years ago, yet here you are doing the same thing. Guess it's ok when you do it cuz it's different, Hipsters don't count. Neither did people of color back then. 2-Anyone that actually does welcome a new group into their neighborhood is viewed as a coward? Hipsters are best defined as snobby? Hey when people of color moved in, I believe they were best defined as "animals", "disgusting" and "mongrels." And NOBODY wanted to welcome them for fear of being a coward or a "nig** lover." Different group, same hate...but it's ok when you do it cuz its "your neighborhood" after all.
That headline, AS USUAL, is deceptive. If you were to read the headline, you would believe there was some "crazy" shootout between cops and some other group, but of course, that was not the case. If you read the article, the theory was that a pit bull was set loose to scare away soem cops, but of course this is speculation. The cop shot at the pitbull to stop it, and the bullet ricocheted off of something and hit 2 other cops. Nothing more. There was no "crazy" shooting or shootout for that matter, nor was anybody (cops or otherwise) shot at.
And here is another set of crime news recently released. NYC reaches new all-time low murder rate:
"New York City finished off the year with the fewest murders since comparable record keeping began.
The 2009 year-end total was 466, down from 523 in 2008 and 496 the year before. It’s the fewest since comparable records were kept in the 1960s."
To think that the long term trend in crime is going to continue to decline is very wishful thinking. I am not a big "doomsday" proponent, but I don't think people realize that we are more than likely on the verge of some very big changes. Whether Mod cutthis year or within the next 5 years, time will only tell. I think it's funny how certain economists and other regular people (mainly ignorant Americans) think that the recession is going to suddenly end and that we will slowly go back to our good ole' American lifestyles of mass conspicuous consumption and a disgusting disproportionate use of resources. The system that has been running us since the dawn of the industrial age is (as everybody knows but chooses to ignore) NOT sustainable. Which means that at some point things are going to have gone too far and will never be able to go back to where they were. It certainly doesn't help that our politicians recognize this but do NOTHING about it. No big changes are being made anywhere, especially in New York where corruption is rampant and money is wasted at an unbelievable rate. It's unfathomable that things such as the city government of Poughkeepsie spending TAXPAYER money to buy 20 leather office chairs (at over $1000 a piece) for some random conference room that will rarely get used, are still happening when more and more people are being laid off as the economy continues to lose jobs (another 85,000 were just cut).
Now, with that said, when things such as our states' 100 billion dollar debt and our nation's failing economy (which hasn't improved, I don't know why people think that we are out of a recession) catch up to us, we will see a dramatic increase in crime. 2008 and 2009 are NOTHING compared to what we will see in the coming years as the situation continues to worsen. When people are finally pushed to the breaking point-as they continue to starve with no work available- while corrupt and greedy politicians waste our tax money at the expense of us, crime will become a necessity. NYC has the potential for mass chaos because as people have already pointed out, there really aren't that many police for the amount of people that live here. In a city as dense as New York where people are literally stacked one on top of the other, there is a huge pool of people competing for what will become even scarcer resources.
It's as simple as that. As economies collapse, people turn to more desperate measures, especially when they see nothing positive being done about it. It took only 4 days for New Orleans to turn into complete anarchy after Katrina. Once our ignorant and arrogant economic system finally catches up to us, I believe we will see something similar across the country. Our so-called civilized society is much more fragile than we think.
You can call all of this speculation, but our way of doing things is driving us deeper into a hole. Our economy is a slowly sinking ship, and you can try and bail it out (pun intended) as much as you want, but without any real change a completely collapse is imminent. New York can barely afford to keep its subway system running right now, yet as people walk through times square and see that the big billboards are still flashing, they are naive and stupid enough to think that everything is perfectly ok. I think America is going to be in for a huge wake-up call.
Last edited by Viralmd; 01-08-2010 at 10:23 AM..
Reason: Language
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