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I understand the meaning of the word "greater" -- my point was that while "Greater" means one thing, it could also be interpreted (if one was overly sensitive) to mean quite another. Just like I think "Outer" doesn't imply "out of state", just not Twin Cities. I think the reason it's not a geographic-based term is just because "Outstate Minnesota" covers pretty much every direction besides east. I would be very curious to learn more about the development of the term, but I don't think it is, or ever was, intended to be in any way derogatory. If it is offensive to some, it's certainly not to all; I've seen it used in plenty of news reports from places in "greater Minnesota," and have heard it used frequently by people I know who come from outside of the Twin Cities.
I rarely hear "Outstate Minnesota" in daily life, mostly because it's not very useful in most contexts. If someone is talking about going to somewhere they say the specific location or the general region -- you don't usually say "I'm going to Outstate Minnesota." (although one might well hear "I'm going up north," a very Minnesotan thing to say!) The artist in the original post used "Outstate Minnesota" in the context of overall visits, and presumably just meant it as a way to differentiate her local, Twin Cities stops versus her trips out of town. When I do see or hear the term, it's most often in terms of politics or policy issues, and even then it's often used by people who represent parts of the state outside of the Twin Cities.
I can understand how it could appear to be a slight -- where there's an "out" there would seem to be an "in", and usually the "in" is considered to be the desirable place -- but don't think that's what is going on here. It's just an easy way to differentiate, when one needs to do so, between the Twin Cities metro area and the rest of Minnesota. Since there are so many differences between the various areas outside of the Twin Cities, the biggest shared feature is only that they don't belong to the Twin Cities, hence the "Out." That's why it doesn't work in so many other contexts, since there's little else in common between Hibbing and Albert Lea, for example. But for contexts when you do need to differentiate between Twin Cities and other parts of the state, it developed as the local term of choice.
I don't like Greater Minnesota (not because I find it offensive, though) -- it sounds bland and utilitarian. I think outstate Minnesota has more flair.
And I don't live in the cities and never have(yet), unless you count St. Cloud which it really isn't, and I was the one referring to it as outstate.
You seem to want to live there so maybe you're assimilating? Anyways, the term is used all the time on this board, yet how many times do you hear it in conversation with non-cities people?
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It wasn't meant to be offensive, just used as a term to differentiate from the Twin Cities and the non twin cities part of Minnesota.
Intentional or not, my point was that I can see how "outsate" can be offensive. I certainly
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Calling the part of miinnesota outside the twin cities as the real minnesota is offensive as well, suggesting that the twin cities is a fake Minnesota.
Which I haven't done.
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I hear Kazoopilot refer to it as outstate as well and he lives in Marshall,
I believe kazoopilot used to live in the cities, I may be mistaken though.
Nevertheless, even though these are all cities-based, it depends on who wrote them. The department of health as a whole didn't write that article, probably only one person did, whi is probably from the cities or has lived there a while.
I think the topic is fascinating, especially its historical roots. I don't have an answer for that, but a quick database search found lots of recent St. Cloud newspaper reports use the term "outstate." I did a search on the historical Minneapolis Tribune archives (only goes through 1922) and found only three relevant hits with the term (mostly referring to "outstate" election returns). Random google searchs also find lots of places in "Outstate" Minnesota referring to themselves in that way.
I also discovered that the Coalition of Greater Minnesota Cities used to be called the Coalition of Outstate Minnesota Cities; I don't know when the name was changed, but that seems to suggest a changing view of the term. It would, however, also suggest that originally, at least, the term was used by people "outstate" themselves, and wasn't something exclusive to the "Cities." You still frequently see the term used by people from across the state, though, even if it doesn't pop up in daily conversation on a regular basis.
You seem to want to live there so maybe you're assimilating? Anyways, the term is used all the time on this board, yet how many times do you hear it in conversation with non-cities people?
Intentional or not, my point was that I can see how "outsate" can be offensive. I certainly
Which I haven't done.
I believe kazoopilot used to live in the cities, I may be mistaken though.
Ya, I lived in the western 'burbs before I moved to Greater Minnesota. I'm probably one of the most anti-cities posters here, though, so I probably don't fit into the same category as those from the cities. I'm not even an MN native -- I'm from Michigan, if that means anything.
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Where did racism enter in?
I think he was talking about the other thread where I said Minnesota wasn't racist.
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Both are cities-based.
The author lives in the cities.
[url="http://www.minnesota-visitor.com/move-to-minnesota.html"]
Website is cities-based.
Also based in the cities.
Nevertheless, even though these are all cities-based, it depends on who wrote them. The department of health as a whole didn't write that article, probably only one person did, whi is probably from the cities or has lived there a while.
True. No one around here says "outstate." Cities people use the term, and if we say it at all, it's only to those from the cities. SW Minnesota residents rarely think about the cities at all (they're no closer than Omaha or Pierre), so we have no reason to use "outstate."
^ People in the Twin Cities don't use the term much either, other than in newspaper articles and to discuss politics and policies. There's really not much reason to use it very often.
I understand the meaning of the word "greater" -- my point was that while "Greater" means one thing, it could also be interpreted (if one was overly sensitive) to mean quite another. Just like I think "Outer" doesn't imply "out of state", just not Twin Cities.
I don't think this is quite applicable. "Greater" has a pretty universally clear and established meaning, it's used all the time. I've often heard it used as in "greater Chicago," if one is confused they can just look it up in the dictionary, it's based simply on the size of the area compared to the populous metro area. "Outstate" doesn't have an established meaning except to cities people. I should just just start calling the cities "outstate" since it's so far out and away from me. Also, when you say "outer" the first thing I think of is "outsider," but if referencing places, just look at my previous sentence; to me "outer" would include the cities if I used the term. "Outstate" is too cities-centric.
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even then it's often used by people who represent parts of the state outside of the Twin Cities.
Such as?
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although one might well hear "I'm going up north," a very Minnesotan thing to say
That's not so thoroughly "Minnesotan," here it's probably a little more common to go south and if you are going northwards, you say the specific place since it's close and many people know where you're talking about. Similarly, would people in Baudette say "I'm going up north?" To us, it's a direction not a place.
I don't think this is quite applicable. "Greater" has a pretty universally clear and established meaning, it's used all the time. I've often heard it used as in "greater Chicago," if one is confused they can just look it up in the dictionary, it's based simply on the size of the area compared to the populous metro area. "Outstate" doesn't have an established meaning except to cities people. I should just just start calling the cities "outstate" since it's so far out and away from me. Also, when you say "outer" the first thing I think of is "outsider," but if referencing places, just look at my previous sentence; to me "outer" would include the cities if I used the term. "Outstate" is too cities-centric.
True. The cities is "outstate" to me.
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Such as?
One thing I've noticed about people from the actual cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul is they don't consider anything outside of city limits part of the "Twin Cities." For example, places like Plymouth and Woodbury are NOT part of the "Twin Cities" to city-dwellers. I wouldn't be surprised if some city-dwellers (not u_u specifically, just city-dwellers in general) considered places like Dayton and Stillwater to be "outstate."
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That's not so thoroughly "Minnesotan," here it's probably a little more common to go south and if you are going northwards, you say the specific place since it's close and many people know where you're talking about.
True.
Michiganders say "up north" all the time, usually to mean a place (usually a cabin) north of where they live. To someone from Kalamazoo, Big Rapids would be "up north."
Out here, we don't say "up north." Vacation (well, weekend trip) means going to the Corn Palace, the Badlands or Mount Rushmore rather than "up north."
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Similarly, would people in Baudette say "I'm going up north?"
Well, one can be personally offended by something and not accept the generally-understood definition of a word, but it's well-established that "outstate Minnesota" has been used by Minnesotans of all parts of the state for years. And of course "outstate" is somewhat "Cities"-centric; it's used only in the context of differentiating between what is in the Twin Cities and what is out. It wouldn't make much sense to differentiate between what is in all of the many diverse parts of Minnesota that is not in the Twin Cities versus the portion of the state that is Twin Cities. The unifying factor between all those other areas is that they are not part of the Twin Cities metro area. That may be "cities"-centric, but that's because it's only used in the very specific context of differentiating between exactly that. No one has any need to use the term unless discussing something that needs to be defined in that way.
To Kazoopilot: who in the Twin Cities doesn't consider Plymouth to be part of the Twin Cities? I've NEVER heard that. "Twin Cities" means the metro area, and of course that encompasses both cities and suburbs. If someone is talking about the actual city of Minneapolis or St. Paul, then they talk about those cities. I've only ever heard "Twin Cities" used to refer to the metro area as a whole. I DO consider Stillwater to be somewhat "outstate," mostly because I still have a tough time considering it part of the metro area. It's long been a stand-alone town, although admittedly subdivisions have made their way out that direction, too.
but a quick database search found lots of recent St. Cloud newspaper reports use the term "outstate."
They are also fairly close to the cities and pretty centrally located in the state.
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Random google searchs also find lots of places in "Outstate" Minnesota referring to themselves in that way.
Such as? If our mayor said "we're a city in outstate Minnesota" most people would be confused or think maybe that the term refers to our being on the border of the state and not being centrally located.
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I also discovered that the Coalition of Greater Minnesota Cities used to be called the Coalition of Outstate Minnesota Cities
And one should also think of the purpose of the organization, it's a lobbying group by Greater Minnesota towns; so they are really based in the cities as that is where the Capitol is, where they need to lobby, despite the members not being from the cities; their office is in St. Paul. Maybe local legislators use the term when politicking in the state legislatures, but not here.
I've heard several people from Mpls. use "the cities" or "Twin Cities" to talk about Minneapolis and St. Paul alone, to distinguish it from the suburbs.
St. Cloud is very close to the cities, so maybe that's why they use the term. They're part of the Minneapolis-St. Paul CSA.
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