Sub-$400,000 houses (Minneapolis, Jordan, Cleveland: condos, crime rates, safe neighborhood)

[paiste13]

I keep reading how there are no cheaper houses in the Twin Cities. ON 4/10/23 I did a Redfin search and found 665 single family houses in the metro under 400k. Add in duplexs and condos and there are 1,600.

In addition, there were 1,600 single family houses under $500k in the metro. OVer 2,000 units when you include condos.

[highlanderfil]

Cool story. Now find an up-to-date one you'd actually want to live in in a safe neighborhood. The results are going to be much, MUCH fewer and farther between. We've been looking for a while in this very price range and the only turnkey houses are in the Camden/Jordan area (high crime) or in the suburbs.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by highlanderfil

Cool story. Now find an up-to-date one you'd actually want to live in in a safe neighborhood. The results are going to be much, MUCH fewer and farther between. We've been looking for a while in this very price range and the only turnkey houses are in the Camden/Jordan area (high crime) or in the suburbs.

Jordan is in individual neighborhood within the broader Near North neighborhood area. Camden is a separate broader geographic area comprised of distinct individual neighborhoods, north of the Near North neighborhood area, where Jordan is located. My home, in a neighborhood within the Camden area, is more than 2 miles from anywhere in the Jordan neighborhood.

My point: clearly you know very little about the Northside if you are (a) referring to the "Camden/Jordan area," which isn't even a thing, and (b) implying that all of the areas that *might* be construed as the ones you are referring to are "high crime."

There are plenty of opportunities for decent houses in decent neighborhoods for under $400K in the metro.

[highlanderfil]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

Jordan is in individual neighborhood within the broader Near North neighborhood area. Camden is a separate broader geographic area comprised of distinct individual neighborhoods, north of the Near North neighborhood area, where Jordan is located. My home, in a neighborhood within the Camden area, is more than 2 miles from anywhere in the Jordan neighborhood.

My point: clearly you know very little about the Northside if you are (a) referring to the "Camden/Jordan area," which isn't even a thing, and (b) implying that all of the areas that *might* be construed as the ones you are referring to are "high crime."

I might have my geographical terminology slightly off, but I'm going off crime statistics on a site I am not allowed to link to here (backed up by a couple more I also probably shouldn't link to, but they're easy enough to find). According to it/them, the area bordered by the railroad tracks in Camden to the North, N. Penn to the West, I-94 to the East and MN-55 to the South (which includes such neighborhoods as the aforementioned Camden, Jordan, Hawthorne, McKinley and Folwell, to name a few) has, alongside Phillips and Ventura Village, the worst crime rates in Minneapolis.

There are plenty of opportunities for decent houses in decent neighborhoods for under $400K in the metro.

Depends on what "decent" means to you. Yes, you can probably find an okayish deal on the high side of that price range, but there certainly aren't "plenty" of such opportunities. It makes sense and is hardly endemic to just the Twin Cities: urban housing is generally at a premium and $400K doesn't buy you much in urban areas anywhere in the U.S. these days.

[Camden Northsider]

Originally Posted by highlanderfil

I might have my geographical terminology slightly off, but I'm going off crime statistics on a site I am not allowed to link to here (backed up by a couple more I also probably shouldn't link to, but they're easy enough to find). According to it/them, the area bordered by the railroad tracks in Camden to the North, N. Penn to the West, I-94 to the East and MN-55 to the South (which includes such neighborhoods as the aforementioned Camden, Jordan, Hawthorne, McKinley and Folwell, to name a few) has, alongside Phillips and Ventura Village, the worst crime rates in Minneapolis.

I'd be interested to know what sources you are citing, and which sites are ranking neighborhood crime rates using the carved-out geographic boundaries you have identified here. That geographic block would include the Webber-Camden neighborhood, but it's only roughly half of the Camden neighborhood area, which extends to Xerxes/parkway and 52nd Avenue on the northern boundary. So, although four of the individual neighborhoods you reference (Jordan, Hawthorne, McKinley, Folwell) do often register as having some of the higher crime rates in the city, you're misrepresenting the use of Camden in excluding four whole neighborhoods within it that historically have crime rates that are much lower than Minneapolis' neighborhood average, in some cases by a long shot (i.e. Shingle Creek, Lind Bohanon, Victory, and Cleveland neighborhoods).

I'm just saying-- if I were going to encourage modern redlining by actively discouraging folks from investing in an entire swath of the city, I'd want to be sure I had my facts, neighborhood names and boundaries straight-- and ideally some direct knowledge/ experience to back up my claims-- vs. lazily tossing out some random neighborhood names and alluding to data sources that might not give the full picture.

[paiste13]

Originally Posted by highlanderfil

I might have my geographical terminology slightly off, but I'm going off crime statistics on a site I am not allowed to link to here (backed up by a couple more I also probably shouldn't link to, but they're easy enough to find). According to it/them, the area bordered by the railroad tracks in Camden to the North, N. Penn to the West, I-94 to the East and MN-55 to the South (which includes such neighborhoods as the aforementioned Camden, Jordan, Hawthorne, McKinley and Folwell, to name a few) has, alongside Phillips and Ventura Village, the worst crime rates in Minneapolis.Depends on what "decent" means to you. Yes, you can probably find an okayish deal on the high side of that price range, but there certainly aren't "plenty" of such opportunities. It makes sense and is hardly endemic to just the Twin Cities: urban housing is generally at a premium and $400K doesn't buy you much in urban areas anywhere in the U.S. these days.

I don't disagree the housing market sucks. It does suck. But you marry the neighborhood and the actual house is less important as you have years to improve it. A family doesn't need HGTV quality aesthetics in their house. I certainly don't have that. I wish I did but I don't.

I did a sub-$400k search in south mpls and the first-ring western suburbs south of 394 and got 153 hits. 171 hits under $500k. That will go up once spring arrives.

[highlanderfil]

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

I'd be interested to know what sources you are citing, and which sites are ranking neighborhood crime rates using the carved-out geographic boundaries you have identified here. That geographic block would include the Webber-Camden neighborhood, but it's only roughly half of the Camden neighborhood area, which extends to Xerxes/parkway and 52nd Avenue on the northern boundary. So, although four of the individual neighborhoods you reference (Jordan, Hawthorne, McKinley, Folwell) do often register as having some of the higher crime rates in the city, you're misrepresenting the use of Camden in excluding four whole neighborhoods within it that historically have crime rates that are much lower than Minneapolis' neighborhood average, in some cases by a long shot (i.e. Shingle Creek, Lind Bohanon, Victory, and Cleveland neighborhoods).

That's fair - and what you're saying tracks with what the map on the site (no big secret, its name starts with N'hood and ends with Scout) says. That said, I'm not sure how keen I would be to live in an oasis surrounded by a war zone (with crappy schools to boot).

Originally Posted by Camden Northsider

I'm just saying-- if I were going to encourage modern redlining by actively discouraging folks from investing in an entire swath of the city

You ascribe to me the amount of influence I could never hope (or want) to exert.

I'd want to be sure I had my facts, neighborhood names and boundaries straight--

Roger that.

and ideally some direct knowledge/ experience to back up my claims--

Yeah, that's going to be a hard pass. I don't need to have a gun pointed directly at me as a prerequisite to being able to provide an opinion. Stats will do just fine, thanks.

vs. lazily tossing out some random neighborhood names and alluding to data sources that might not give the full picture.

What would that "full picture" be?

[highlanderfil]

Originally Posted by paiste13

But you marry the neighborhood and the actual house is less important as you have years to improve it.

Problem is, that's how a $400K house becomes a $500K house before you've had time to blink.

A family doesn't need HGTV quality aesthetics in their house. I certainly don't have that. I wish I did but I don't.

No, but at least a hint of modern amenities would be nice. I'll give you an example. I'm baffled at how in love with oak trim the Midwest is, despite the fact that it's cloudy 1/2 of the year here. Most houses in this price range that haven't been renovated in a while will have it. (Most renovated ones won't.) Ripping it up and replacing it with lighter trim isn't cheap. Nor is updating ancient kitchens, re-laying crooked floors and installing weatherproof windows - all issues endemic to "historical" homes here.

I did a sub-$400k search in south mpls and the first-ring western suburbs south of 394 and got 153 hits. 171 hits under $500k. That will go up once spring arrives.

I don't really know what that tells me. A sub-$400K house can be a 2-bedroom bungalow in a nice neighborhood or a 5-bedroom monstrosity in the middle of Ventura Village. Once you start filtering down to the amenities and specs you actually want, the results dwindle into single digits (double if unlike me you're not particularly picky).

[highlanderfil]

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[paiste13]

Originally Posted by highlanderfil

Problem is, that's how a $400K house becomes a $500K house before you've had time to blink.No, but at least a hint of modern amenities would be nice. I'll give you an example. I'm baffled at how in love with oak trim the Midwest is, despite the fact that it's cloudy 1/2 of the year here. Most houses in this price range that haven't been renovated in a while will have it. (Most renovated ones won't.) Ripping it up and replacing it with lighter trim isn't cheap.

If you're discounting houses based on the trim color it might be a "you" problem over a market problem. Paint the trim white at a bare minimum if it offends you.