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In my opinion as someone who's traveled around the country, the Midwest stretches well into Upstate New York and through most of Pennsylvania, but only about the eastern halves of the Great Plains states are Midwestern.
Northern Kentucky is probably also Midwestern rather than Southern, and I say that because Midwesterners tend to be ambivalent about the matter, while Southerners tend to think Kentucky isn't part of the South.
I would say that some of the areas outside of KC and especially to the south are somewhat influenced by southern culture. But still it is really a Midwestern city and has some western culture taking root.
I disagree. Listen closely, because the KC metro is divided by a state line.
People new to KC and the suburban Kansas side don't consider KC "southern" at all.
They'll scream til they are blue in the face that KC is "midwestern." Kansans especially hate the south because of the civil war and the guerilla war between MO & KS.
But the city (KCMO) and Missouri suburbs have always had a southern slant - from the accent to the food and music culture. KCMO's historic culture is BBQ, jazz, blues... all from the south.
That being said, the city is changing and definitely looks westward more and more, but it is and historically has had a southern influence.
I disagree. Listen closely, because the KC metro is divided by a state line.
People new to KC and the suburban Kansas side don't consider KC "southern" at all.
They'll scream til they are blue in the face that KC is "midwestern." Kansans especially hate the south because of the civil war and the guerilla war between MO & KS.
But the city (KCMO) and Missouri suburbs have always had a southern slant - from the accent to the food and music culture. KCMO's historic culture is BBQ, jazz, blues... all from the south.
That being said, the city is changing and definitely looks westward more and more, but it is and historically has had a southern influence.
Those few traits hardly define KC as a southern city. I hear more of a southern accent in areas of Cincinnati and even Indianapolis than KC. I met people from the real south in KC (mostly AR) and they don't even have a southern accent. Others are barely detectable.
Analogy now. New England and especially northern New England has a strong influence from French Canada right on down to street signs in French. Yet, the area is still not a part of Canada nor fully embracing the culture and it is still very much New England. Maple BBQ and smoking meats with maple was popular in New England from its inception and started back in the 1600's.
BTW. Chicago also has a strong tradition of Jazz and Blues music and to some degree BBQ.
Those few traits hardly define KC as a southern city. I hear more of a southern accent in areas of Cincinnati and even Indianapolis than KC. I met people from the real south in KC (mostly AR) and they don't even have a southern accent. Others are barely detectable.
Analogy now. New England and especially northern New England has a strong influence from French Canada right on down to street signs in French. Yet, the area is still not a part of Canada nor fully embracing the culture and it is still very much New England. Maple BBQ and smoking meats with maple was popular in New England from its inception and started back in the 1600's.
BTW. Chicago also has a strong tradition of Jazz and Blues music and to some degree BBQ.
There is no one Southern accent. Arkansans are certainly Southerners, but they don't sound like Virginians or South Carolinians.
Kentucky is part of the Upper South, not Deep South, but with the arguable exception of the inhabitants of Northern Kentucky (i.e. the three counties which orient towards Cincinnati), Kentuckians will describe themselves and their Commonwealth as Southern.
Again, I am referring to cultural matters, not geographic.
Those Cincinnatians who sound (to your ears) as if they have Southern accents are probably Kentucky transplants, not native Cincinnatians (unless perhaps first generation). Those Cincinnatians with deep roots in the city tend to have very pronounced, rather nasal accents with some German influence - they do not sound at all Southern. Vowel pronunciation is markedly different, and a deep-rooted Cincinnatian will ask you "Please?", if he doesn't hear you clearly, rather than "I beg your pardon?". It's straight from the German "Bitte?" Cincinnati grew enormously in the 1840s and 1850s, when many German immigrants settled there and in other cities along the Ohio River, and that German influence is still very, very evident.
Food ways are another clear indicator of predominant culture, as you noted with your references to French influences in New England. You'll find some Southern foods in Cincinnati, but again, the German influence is prevalent among long-time residents and natives. Brats, goetta, German cole slaw, pickles, and great bakeries.
Many eastern Kentuckians moved to Cincinnati in the 1950s, to work in the factories after a slump in coal mining. You can still experience evidence of this each Friday night, when I-75 is filled with southbound Ohio-plated cars, filled with homesick Kentuckians headed back "home" for the weekend...
The German influence is not so pervasive in Kentucky, outside of Louisville and the counties directly across from Cincinnati, as the great German immigration wave of the 1840s was not broadly experienced here outside of these areas. The early English-Scots-Irish heritage is still predominant in much of the state. Spoonbread, Sally Lunn, bacon rather than goetta or brats, Bibb lettuce, and so on.
These distinctions are fading with time, of course, and foodways are more homogeneous nowadays than was once the case - but can still be found in Grandmas's recipe boxes on both sides of the river. Holiday foods also tend to be very traditional, with special recipes handed down from generation to generation, and they can also reflect regional and cultural differences.
But Kentucky is a Southern state, inarguably, with some areas also displaying Midwestern traits. Upper South, Border State - but Southern. We're on the Southern side of the river!
Last edited by CraigCreek; 06-20-2017 at 06:36 AM..
Yes, I agree that KY is a southern state. Anyone that insists otherwise is ignorant. Have heard enough of that pablum to make me want to put my head into a vice and tighten it up. :-)
I'm more concerned with a person's character and personality than where they originate. Too many people are hung up on the Civil War and as you've pointed out the problems in KS and MO between some of the people there seems to suggest they have not gotten over what happened in the Civil War. While they should not forget what happened, it is evident nobody from that era is alive today and did not take part in the raids that each side of the state line imparted on the other.
Thankfully I don't see much of this attitude in NKY or the OH side either. A few comments from time to time about quirks in the culture of the other state but that is about it. I'm of Swedish heritage on my Mothers side with some Irish, English and Scottish on my Father's side. Not overly concerned with the German heritage in the area. They do their thing and I do mine.:-)
There is no one Southern accent. Arkansans are certainly Southerners, but they don't sound like Virginians or South Carolinians.
Kentucky is part of the Upper South, not Deep South, but with the arguable exception of the inhabitants of Northern Kentucky (i.e. the three counties which orient towards Cincinnati), Kentuckians will describe themselves and their Commonwealth as Southern.
Again, I am referring to cultural matters, not geographic.
Those Cincinnatians who sound (to your ears) as if they have Southern accents are probably Kentucky transplants, not native Cincinnatians (unless perhaps first generation). Those Cincinnatians with deep roots in the city tend to have very pronounced, rather nasal accents with some German influence - they do not sound at all Southern. Vowel pronunciation is markedly different, and a deep-rooted Cincinnatian will ask you "Please?", if he doesn't hear you clearly, rather than "I beg your pardon?". It's straight from the German "Bitte?" Cincinnati grew enormously in the 1840s and 1850s, when many German immigrants settled there and in other cities along the Ohio River, and that German influence is still very, very evident.
Food ways are another clear indicator of predominant culture, as you noted with your references to French influences in New England. You'll find some Southern foods in Cincinnati, but again, the German influence is prevalent among long-time residents and natives. Brats, goetta, German cole slaw, pickles, and great bakeries.
Many eastern Kentuckians moved to Cincinnati in the 1950s, to work in the factories after a slump in coal mining. You can still experience evidence of this each Friday night, when I-75 is filled with southbound Ohio-plated cars, filled with homesick Kentuckians headed back "home" for the weekend...
The German influence is not so pervasive in Kentucky, outside of Louisville and the counties directly across from Cincinnati, as the great German immigration wave of the 1840s was not broadly experienced here outside of these areas. The early English-Scots-Irish heritage is still predominant in much of the state. Spoonbread, Sally Lunn, bacon rather than goetta or brats, Bibb lettuce, and so on.
These distinctions are fading with time, of course, and foodways are more homogeneous nowadays than was once the case - but can still be found in Grandmas's recipe boxes on both sides of the river. Holiday foods also tend to be very traditional, with special recipes handed down from generation to generation, and they can also reflect regional and cultural differences.
But Kentucky is a Southern state, inarguably, with some areas also displaying Midwestern traits. Upper South, Border State - but Southern. We're on the Southern side of the river!
Speaking geographically, it's also a Southern state since it's south of the Mason Dixon line which is the traditional border between North and South. Also, it was part of Virginia and I don't think anyone can argue Virginia is a not a Southern state regardless of politics. This part of the country has always been culturally and traditionally Southern even if masses of Northerners now live in Northeast Virginia and Northern KY. Florida doesn't stop being a Southern state because of the many Northern people that have moved there. If 2 million Southerners moved to Cincinnati and southern Ohio, would anyone be debating that Ohio was now a Southern state? It's the same with every state. You can change the demographics of people that live there but you can't change where they are located geographically nor their history. They are what they are.
Last edited by marino760; 06-20-2017 at 07:26 PM..
This part of the country has always been culturally and traditionally Southern even if masses of Northerners now live in Northeast Virginia and Northern KY. Florida doesn't stop being a Southern state because of the many Northern people that have moved there. If 2 million Southerners moved to Cincinnati and southern Ohio, would anyone be debating that Ohio was now a Southern state? It's the same with every state. You can change the demographics of people that live there but you can't change where they are located geographically nor their history. They are what they are.
Exactly. Just because a city gains a lot of people who are transplants or immigrants, does not mean the city is now somehow a part of a different region. I made a similar statement on a thread in the City vs. City section. Like you said, if the tables were reversed and New York or Michigan all of a sudden gained tons of transplants from the South, does this make New York Southern? It doesn't. I still to this day think that the US Census Bureau defines the Southern United States the best. MD and DE can be argued, but it's the best definition we have currently. Obviously the lower Midwest, being a border region will have some Southern influences, but for the most part, Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois are Midwestern States and once you cross the Ohio River, you have entered the South.
Exactly. Just because a city gains a lot of people who are transplants or immigrants, does not mean the city is now somehow a part of a different region. I made a similar statement on a thread in the City vs. City section. Like you said, if the tables were reversed and New York or Michigan all of a sudden gained tons of transplants from the South, does this make New York Southern? It doesn't. I still to this day think that the US Census Bureau defines the Southern United States the best. MD and DE can be argued, but it's the best definition we have currently. Obviously the lower Midwest, being a border region will have some Southern influences, but for the most part, Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois are Midwestern States and once you cross the Ohio River, you have entered the South.
Agreed. Unless the Ohio River moves south of Kentucky, Kentucky will never be part of the Midwest and that includes the City of Louisville regardless of how the city "feels" or it's changing demographics. The state's borders aren't moving anytime soon.
In my opinion as someone who's traveled around the country, the Midwest stretches well into Upstate New York and through most of Pennsylvania, but only about the eastern halves of the Great Plains states are Midwestern.
Northern Kentucky is probably also Midwestern rather than Southern, and I say that because Midwesterners tend to be ambivalent about the matter, while Southerners tend to think Kentucky isn't part of the South.
I would agree with most of this. The Midwest is culturally further East than people seem to think and only encompasses the Eastern part of the Great Plains States. For example, Kansas, especially western Kansas, feels more western than in does Midwestern.
Kentucky is a tricky state, as are the southern borders of Indiana and Ohio. I think, as with all borderlands there is Southern seepage if you will, in Southern Indiana and Ohio. Evangelical Christian church culture is prevalent. The accents have a Southern lilt.
Conversely, Louisville, Kentucky has a blend of Southern and Midwestern influences. In some ways parts of Indiana seem more "Southern" than does Louisville, however, towards the Tennessee border, things once again begin to change.
As human beings, we have a propensity and a desire to neatly categorize and label things - regions of the United States, for a variety of reasons, seem to be almost an obsession for many Americans.
Borders are not always discrete, orderly and neat. Anyone who has ever traveled in Europe can attest to that. Maps are man made, and culture and society does not always conform to these arbitrary demarcations.
Consequently, it is entirely possible that Kentucky has attributes of two regions.
I would agree with most of this. The Midwest is culturally further East than people seem to think and only encompasses the Eastern part of the Great Plains States. For example, Kansas, especially western Kansas, feels more western than in does Midwestern.
Kentucky is a tricky state, as are the southern borders of Indiana and Ohio. I think, as with all borderlands there is Southern seepage if you will, in Southern Indiana and Ohio. Evangelical Christian church culture is prevalent. The accents have a Southern lilt.
Conversely, Louisville, Kentucky has a blend of Southern and Midwestern influences. In some ways parts of Indiana seem more "Southern" than does Louisville, however, towards the Tennessee border, things once again begin to change.
As human beings, we have a propensity and a desire to neatly categorize and label things - regions of the United States, for a variety of reasons, seem to be almost an obsession for many Americans.
Borders are not always discrete, orderly and neat. Anyone who has ever traveled in Europe can attest to that. Maps are man made, and culture and society does not always conform to these arbitrary demarcations.
Consequently, it is entirely possible that Kentucky has attributes of two regions.
I can agree with some of this however having attributes of two regions doesn't make it part of one or both of those regions. State borders are very discrete, orderly and neat. You're either in one state or another. Their borders are quite defined. Culture doesn't need to conform. You can have many cultures in one state such as Florida. It will never make Florida part of NY or New England because it has millions of transplants from there with their culture and particular accents. There have been probably at least hundreds of thousands if not millions of people from CA moving to other states including Texas and taking their culture with them. Texas does not become a West Coast state because of that. It's demographics change, that's about it.
Again, how a state "feels" has nothing to do with where a state is located and it's borders. Kentucky is no different.
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