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So far I agree with most of your posts. Here we differ. For my views:
Don't expect much agreement on this.
Idaho is at the front of both sides of this issue; there's a lithium mine here that's been in operation for many years.
And Idaho has the Idaho National Laboratory, the national lab that produced the very first lithium batteries for automobiles. The Idaho Technology Center, the state-owned adjunct to the INL, is dedicated to making electrical energy environmentally safe in all its forms.
We have some of all of the energy forms here. Wind, solar (another INL first in the USA), nuclear, hydro, and batteries, and there are still some gs and coal powered plants here as well.
The INL has been tackling waste issues for all of them for decades as an ongoing part of its mission.
Most folks haves never heard of the INL, but it was founded in the early 1950s as a test laboratory for the nuclear industry. The first operational nuclear submarine's power plant was built here, and it's twin, identical in all the inner spaces of the USS Nautilus is still here.
Now shut down and retired, that landlocked submarine with no exterior pressure shell trained the officers and personnel who ran our nuclear Navy for over 40 years.
The land the lab rests on was once a naval test range for the big 16" guns that went on our last battleships.
As nuclear faded in the late 1980s, the mission of the lab expanded into the other areas.
For decades, the INL was the smallest national lab and drew no attention compared to Los Alamos and the other, larger, labs that all concentrated on weapons production. But these days, the INL has become our nation's leading energy lab, and a major driver of Idaho's economy.
The INL is rather like NASA. We all use some of the lab's developments all the time, because the lab promotes the use of private companies taking advantage of federal patents. We are all familiar with those end users, as they're the big names on our store shelves, but they're all using stuff that came from the INL that was adapted for mass consumption by private industry.
Don't expect much agreement on this.
Idaho is at the front of both sides of this issue; there's a lithium mine here that's been in operation for many years.
And Idaho has the Idaho National Laboratory, the national lab that produced the very first lithium batteries for automobiles. The Idaho Technology Center, the state-owned adjunct to the INL, is dedicated to making electrical energy environmentally safe in all its forms.
I applaud INL's efforts. How does this relate to whether electric vehicles are truly "green" or a form of virtue signalling that may prove crippling to the nation and very expensive on those who can least afford it?
So that's fairly different than the amount of time it takes to fill up on gasoline. Do these charging stations have coffee and pastries? So it takes longer for on the road fill-ups, but costs less. (Well, I still haven't heard how they work that payment... ) I guess in your circumstance, you always just charge at home, so charging on the road is not an issue.
In any case, congrats on your new car and good for you going electric! We certainly don't need this North Idaho heat wave to get any worse!
I didn't jump into the EV thing blindly. I did a ton of research on it as well as watched a number of great resources of folks that are doing extensive coast to coast driving with the ID.4 in particular, and utilizing primarily the Electrify America charging system. The most vast one aside from Tesla themselves, and soon to be at that level as they've promised to increase station locations across the country by over 800 for the next calendar year. If you ever want some entertainment and learn a bit, check out the EVDad and JK on Youtube. They did some amazing cross country treks and documented a ton of information along the way. They aptly pointed out (though you may not wish to admit or realize it) the nature of our desires to travel and how we do it in regard to the stops we make (mostly needed) for a kidney or intestinal break, coffee, water, stretch your legs etc.
It is rather proven that the recommendations for lengthy travel has always been to get OUT of your care minimum once ever 1-2 hours and stretch your legs and get the blood circulation moving to keep you healthy and safe from possible DVT. I used to be a road warrior for over a decade, traveling across 17 States from late January through October each year for sales calls in my car. Back when I was in my 40's sure, it was possible to drive for hours and never have to stop. These days in my late 60's I'd probably have to stop minimum once an hour. If you're trekking with dogs and such you know the drill. The typical stops those guys on Youtube made was 10-20 minutes a crack, so not the least bit of an intrusion. As JK pointed out it was just enough time to hit the restroom and take care of a kidney, grab a coffee and head out. I don't have to tell you when you take a LONG trip often meals are included in your stops so it's not a biggie. I'm rather sure with the years ahead more and more who are dropping the ICE (internal combustion engine) cars there will indeed be some adjustment to the normal ways of travel.
I haven't taken a trip yet, but I'm looking at the possible planning of one and it's exciting seeing the charging stops along the way up towards Portland/Vancouver then up towards Seattle heading to Mt. Rainer and over to Yakima and back down to south central Idaho. I used to travel that way for business so am real familiar with the routes and they are nicely accommodated by the charging opportunities. All the hotels I'd stay at have them as well for overnight charge ups. Sweeet........
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The article, The Lithium Gold Rush: Inside the Race to Power Electric Vehicles in the far from "denier" New York Times (link), points out that there is much environmental damage from manufacturing electirc automobiles. An excerpt from the article states (excerpt in quoted post):
While the U.S.'s pall-mall race towards reliance on electric cars may signal virtue, it is far from harmless. The reflex to protect the earth has merit; not all actions taken in its name are beneficial.
For what it's worth in the next 4 years Toyota, Hundai, Nissan and others already have a Solid State battery in the works so Lithium's days are already numbered. The pollution aspects will evaporate so don't lose sleep over it nor criticize it as it's coming and it will be a significant advancement with not only greater range but 15 minute full charge times possible. Cheer up, no more carbon buildup on those pistons.
I applaud INL's efforts. How does this relate to whether electric vehicles are truly "green" or a form of virtue signalling that may prove crippling to the nation and very expensive on those who can least afford it?
Every action needs a plan first.
The INL is a place where plans are made through testing and analysis.
Your premise that the EVs will cripple the nation are dubious to me this summer; global warming is already beginning to cripple us, so if EVs can cut down our carbon emissions enough to make a difference, they are a bigger benefit to all of us- including those who can't afford one- than continuing to rely on the oil-powered vehicles we all depend on now.
There was no virtue signaling in my previous post. I simply stated some facts about the INL, its mission, and its experience with the ways we produce and use electrical energy.
Right now, all EVs are in the same state of progress that gasoline engines were 100 years ago. The lithium battery isn't the final end of battery development any more than the carburetor was the final end of combusting gasoline vapors in an engine.
There are naturally going to be problems that arise no one can see now. I can't say if the INL will be able to address them or not, but none of us can. The problems will have to surface first.
I'm happy to stand by my contention that the INL and it's adjuncts position Idaho pretty well in the search for alternative energy sources.
There was no virtue signaling in my previous post. I simply stated some facts about the INL, its mission, and its experience with the ways we produce and use electrical energy.
I never suggested that you were virtue-signaling. I think the politicians who tout a visionary scheme are in a state of "terminal euphoria."
For the most part I don't usually need to charge beyond 50% so it's nicely affordable. Like I said the same equivalent for me was like $5 vs. $40 so not sure how your figures agree with my particular usage. Everyone is different in how they drive and where they need to go on a regular basis. The warranty alone is 8 years and 100,000 miles so decent care of the battery should certainly take it far beyond a warranty.
OK that makes sense....$3.95 would be something like 60% recharge + or -. It just did not make sense as a full recharge cost, based on the advertised usable battery capacities, etc. And if one lived in CA, where electric rates are so much higher, then with even those higher gas prices, the payback for an EV gets worse.
Paying for charges at a charging station is more expensive so again, the payback gets worse. I guess what I want to point out is that your situation is optimistic for ownership costs of an EV. And you have not said how much you paid for the charger and it's installation; that has to be added to the payback period of the EV.... though it may be a wash versus oil changes and such in an ICE car if one really wants to get down to more details.
BTW, the VW battery warranty is 8 years OR 100,000, miles whichever comes first. So if it makes it to 8 years but only 75,000 miles, then the payback gets worse. Batteries lose capacity just with age, and, again, quick charges decrease battery age very noticably. I am pretty darned sure that many/most who ballyhoo the quick charge as the fix for the long EV road trip are not aware of this.
OK that makes sense....$3.95 would be something like 60% recharge + or -. It just did not make sense as a full recharge cost, based on the advertised usable battery capacities, etc. And if one lived in CA, where electric rates are so much higher, then with even those higher gas prices, the payback for an EV gets worse.
Paying for charges at a charging station is more expensive so again, the payback gets worse. I guess what I want to point out is that your situation is optimistic for ownership costs of an EV. And you have not said how much you paid for the charger and it's installation; that has to be added to the payback period of the EV.... though it may be a wash versus oil changes and such in an ICE car if one really wants to get down to more details.
BTW, the VW battery warranty is 8 years OR 100,000, miles whichever comes first. So if it makes it to 8 years but only 75,000 miles, then the payback gets worse. Batteries lose capacity just with age, and, again, quick charges decrease battery age very noticably. I am pretty darned sure that many/most who ballyhoo the quick charge as the fix for the long EV road trip are not aware of this.
The surprising thing I found is the number of charging stations on the road that are actually FREE. It seems Oregon and Washington are leading the way with this, but some locations such as in Hailey and other out of the way places have their municipal locations having some charging stations available that have no charge. That's rather nice of them.
Regarding the cost of the Level 2 charger, I got a real nice one. Didn't have to but I like good stuff. So put out $600 for the EVSC unit and $300 for the NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage for a electrician to install the breaker and plate setup. The Fed's have a 30% rebate available on my next years tax return which is a nice benefit. it's obviously a very long term investment that as far as I'm concerned far outweighs the costs of petro fuels in anywhere near the time frame involved. Remember also there is NO transmission or piston related engine with it's wear and tear to deal with along with carbon buildups. No catalytic converter to steal. No regular scheduled maintenance schedule even close to a ICE car (first one is at 20k just for inspections no charge). I rather like the idea of not seeing a mechanic anytime soon for typical maintenance.
I have several items I own that use LiOn batteries and am very familiar with the process of making sure they last as long as possible delivering the best charge characteristics. Sure one can abuse the process but I don't worry about it. 8 years for me is a bit different as I'm in a lease, so 4 years from now it will be the latest greatest model change over which hopefully will be a Solid State battery with even fewer issues. It is indeed a fact that continuous fast charging will degrade a battery quicker than Level 2 or 1 charging. BUT if one adheres to the 80% maximum charge even with the 125kwh charging methods they can expect a 5 percent degradation after 4 years of use. Not too shabby. The battery pack is using a very sophisticated liquid cooled temperature control system. I read the white paper on it and my goodness they did their homework. This not unlike virtually ALL purchases have to have a reason why and a expected purpose use. For my amount of miles I drive it's perfect. For some I suppose less so. Just glad to be rid of the ICE engine. This is so much more fun and enjoyable.
I never suggested that you were virtue-signaling. I think the politicians who tout a visionary scheme are in a state of "terminal euphoria."
I won't argue that point for sure. I agree; there are far too many politicians that are seeking visionary schemes that will never work while ignoring the practical schemes that will only work in part.
I don't think single solutions for any of our biggest problems exist, but there are quite a few partial solutions that can work on parts of the big problems.
To me, that's good enough. Once a job begins, it's easier to do more or less work to get it done.
Starting the job is the hardest part if politics is an element. There will always be some politicians who never want the job to being, and others who will be against it because it isn't perfect.
I never liked to pass up the possible in search of perfection. One step is one step closer to the goal in my book.
I never suggested that you were virtue-signaling. I think the politicians who tout a visionary scheme are in a state of "terminal euphoria."
You could well be right about that.
I doubt there is any single magic bullet cure that will decrease our carbon emissions.
I also believe that what may work the best for us may not be the best for other countries or regions on Earth.
But in economic terms, global warming is, I believe, the next huge technological issue that could easily shift the economic balance that now exists in the U.S., and I'm glad I live in a state where the INL exists.
That lab could be one of the important levers that shift the economic balance, and its location here gives Idaho a home-field advantage in the development of new private industries that all have global warming as the mission for their existence.
The INL is one of very few places we have in this country that cuts away the theoretical from the practical.
Since Idaho has always been very entrepreneurial and has always encouraged private industry, this is a pretty big home-field advantage.
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So it takes longer for on the road fill-ups, but costs less. (Well, I still haven't heard how they work that payment... 
) I guess in your circumstance, you always just charge at home, so charging on the road is not an issue.
. No regular scheduled maintenance schedule even close to a ICE car (first one is at 20k just for inspections no charge). I rather like the idea of not seeing a mechanic anytime soon for typical maintenance.
