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Regarding the alerting, on dogs, and on people. My two are strong on alerting, and it has been a constant thing for years. We've slowly, slowly, bit by little bit, dialed it back. Alerting can be a strong function in some farmcollies (which includes BCs), and it sounds like Bogo has it. (I like "Bogo" as a name, actually, it IS original!) If it is alerting, then it is not fear-based. I find it better to acknowledge the alert, and then instruct them to dial it back. With those instructions being whatever it takes to make it happen. Sometimes I have to get very loud to break their focus.
However, the guy running thing could be partly negative-experience based, no way to know for sure.
As for the dogs, it might be body-language based. Mine will go off on some dogs, and not on others. But when they go off on a dog, and that dog then acts submissive, they take it back down a notch or three. I've never really been able to precisely figure this out, because people don't like it (usually) when mine get in another dog's face. I've met some people who realized its dogs doing dog things, but not many. I think tho, that they go off on dogs who ignore body language protocol. I don't know if I can explain it better - but for mine, it seems like dogs who are the "I'm a big goof and I love everybody" are the type that really don't "get" dog body-language protocol, because they are so dialed in to humans. They also tend to go off on dogs who are overly dog-friendly and are the type to be in-your-face about play mode.
Regarding the alerting, on dogs, and on people. My two are strong on alerting, and it has been a constant thing for years. We've slowly, slowly, bit by little bit, dialed it back. Alerting can be a strong function in some farmcollies (which includes BCs), and it sounds like Bogo has it. (I like "Bogo" as a name, actually, it IS original!) If it is alerting, then it is not fear-based. I find it better to acknowledge the alert, and then instruct them to dial it back. With those instructions being whatever it takes to make it happen. Sometimes I have to get very loud to break their focus.
However, the guy running thing could be partly negative-experience based, no way to know for sure.
As for the dogs, it might be body-language based. Mine will go off on some dogs, and not on others. But when they go off on a dog, and that dog then acts submissive, they take it back down a notch or three. I've never really been able to precisely figure this out, because people don't like it (usually) when mine get in another dog's face. I've met some people who realized its dogs doing dog things, but not many. I think tho, that they go off on dogs who ignore body language protocol. I don't know if I can explain it better - but for mine, it seems like dogs who are the "I'm a big goof and I love everybody" are the type that really don't "get" dog body-language protocol, because they are so dialed in to humans. They also tend to go off on dogs who are overly dog-friendly and are the type to be in-your-face about play mode.
Yeah, that he didn't care about the female jogging by after barking away at 2 males before made me think it was something negative.
The little old lady with the German Shepherd, also zero issue.
But, I also think that perhaps he wasn't socialized enough with other dogs when he was younger. So, in addition to the trails around the lake giving him a ton of exercise, allowing him to see the squirrels he wants to round up, it will also allow him to see many types of people and dogs.
It would be great if I could find a well mannered dog and have him learn from that dog. As you said, those goofy "I'm sooooo friendly, guyz!' types that get up in other dogs spaces without permission, are not the best teachers.
The problem is, I have to exercise this type of dog, a lot. I have to make the exercise low key, because he's still healing from being snipped. He can't full out run, jump, fling himself around, etc, because of it. He can't do much more than walk for the next 14 days, they said.
The only real good place to take him on a long walk is around the lake, where other people are who have dogs. And as I learned with Shasta, a ton of people know absolutely nothing about dogs, and often times, just as you said, their dogs are more focused on humans.
As for the people - alerting is not something I really had to deal with in the past. It was very rare that Shasta would lose his ish about a person, but every so often, he was not happy with a person, even though the person wasn't walking towards him, wasn't trying to engage him, etc. I chalked it up to Shasta knowing that this person was probably not a good person.
Sakari? Pscht. That never happened. She would have befriended the entire world, if that was possible. While Sakari was definitely more BC in so many ways, they were BC mix. I guess the mix part took over when it came to humans, because she never 'alerted' me to anything. The only time she would bark like a maniac was when she was on the screened in porch, looking out over her 'kingdom' and announcing all kinds of things that she decided her 'kingdom' needed to know.
I know that BCs can be territorial to their home turf, but this was his first day not waking up in the shelter, so it's not like he already decided that the entire lake was his. He has very much decided that I'm the best thing ever, because while he will leave my side at home and go out to the porch, or like last night slept by the door to the porch, when I'm not up and moving, any time he sees me move, he gets up and follows me everywhere I go.
Over the last 3 years, I've delivered to a lot of places. A lot of times, even in CA, I would go out to farms. Very pleasant drives, and when I would arrive, the owner would either let me meet their cows, or sometimes they would have a bunch of farm dogs, BCs especially, who were in 'runs', and it was clear that those dogs did not come inside. They did their work, they went back to their runs, and they would have multiple dogs like that. Maybe this boy came from the same environment? I have no idea, but I do know that it's not uncommon for some to have their working dogs in a run when not working, and not out being social, not being treated like a house pet.
I do know that this dog has some fear. Sometimes, when we are outside and I stumble on something, he gets skittish, like he thinks someone is coming to hurt him. Then he sees it's me and relaxes, immediately.
Sometimes, like not too long ago, he'll be on the bed, and if I move too quickly towards him, he acts like he's about to be hit.
There's going to be a lot of work with this dog. I'm up for it. I'm being very calm, and very easy with him with my voice, with my actions, and with my reactions. Sometimes he does something and thinks he's going to get into trouble. I just show him that he didn't do anything wrong. Yes, the chicken is for you, let me put it up to your mouth again. If he does something I don't want him to do, I simply get up and walk away, or I walk in between what he's messing with and him. That's it. I don't get verbal, I don't get aggressive, I don't anything except break the focus, calmly.
I do think we'll keep the early morning walks...man I hate getting up early...because the people in the morning time are far more calm and not as stupid as the others who arrive later in the day. Every single one of those people today completely ignored my dog, as they should. They gave no reaction to my dog, not even the first guy who was jogging by. Didn't even look at the dog. Perfect. That's what I want. I don't want them to give this boy a reaction. Many of the more docile dogs also gave my dog no reaction. They may have looked over at him, but did nothing, just kept walking, calmly. In the afternoon? You don't get that on those trails. You get dogs who also haven't been socialized correctly, and will lunge at the end of their leash, barking back.
Dialing it back is something I need to learn. I would assume, 'Quiet' would be the command, but not sure how to train that.
I know that BCs can be territorial to their home turf, but this was his first day not waking up in the shelter, so it's not like he already decided that the entire lake was his. He has very much decided that I'm the best thing ever, because while he will leave my side at home and go out to the porch, or like last night slept by the door to the porch, when I'm not up and moving, any time he sees me move, he gets up and follows me everywhere I go.
. . .
I do know that this dog has some fear. Sometimes, when we are outside and I stumble on something, he gets skittish, like he thinks someone is coming to hurt him. Then he sees it's me and relaxes, immediately.
Sometimes, like not too long ago, he'll be on the bed, and if I move too quickly towards him, he acts like he's about to be hit.
. . .
Dialing it back is something I need to learn. I would assume, 'Quiet' would be the command, but not sure how to train that.
Sounds like the start of a great relationship!
Velcro: very much a farmcollie thing. After all, they're bred to pay attention to Mr. (or Mrs.) Farmer in every detail.
Skittish: I would certainly believe you regarding the possibility of fear and negative experiences, but skittishness is also very much a farmcollie thing. A brave dog who stands his ground a bit too long, can take a hoof to the head, instantely removing that dog from the gene pool. A skittish dog who pays attention and MOVES will likely live long enough to learn when to be calm and strong.
These traits aren't found in every dog, and may not even be consistent among littermates. They are tendencies. You are right that they will have been shaped by his early experiences, tho. If I'd had more energy for it, mine would probably have benefitted from more dog socialization. I just didn't have the energy to make it a priority, and we've always had other priorities that came first. I manage things so it is only a minor inconvenience at times.
Dialing it back: Use whatever command comes easiest to you. It's consistency that counts. You can use "Barabajagal!" if it rolls off your tongue! Whistle, hand signal, word, no matter - consistency. I just try to break their focus. When they re-focus on me, they stop, at least for a moment, whatever they were doing. And that gets at least verbal validation. But I'm no expert on training! Lots of training gold nuggets out there in the dog-expert-book world. Although eventually you and Bogo will manage even without those expert gold nuggets! He'll be smart enough - given enough time!
Skittish: I would certainly believe you regarding the possibility of fear and negative experiences, but skittishness is also very much a farmcollie thing. A brave dog who stands his ground a bit too long, can take a hoof to the head, instantely removing that dog from the gene pool. A skittish dog who pays attention and MOVES will likely live long enough to learn when to be calm and strong.
This is heartening to read. Our 3-year-old Border Collie / Lab / Beagle mix is pretty skittish, and it sometimes makes me feel a combination of discouraged and frustrated (though I think I remain externally patient and calm with her). But it helps to think that it's a trait that has historically served an important purpose. So: Thank you!
We got up way too early again...it was still dark outside. I was just going to walk him around the complex and then come back in and go back to bed. As we were walking - and I don't mean some leisurely stroll - he trots, I walk very fast to keep him trotting - I thought that I couldn't just walk him around the complex, we needed to go further.
So, I went up an alternate back road that leads out of the complex, ended up on the main road, which was very light of traffic, walked along that for a bit, and then, as we got a little closer to the complex main entrance....I actually ran.
I hate running anything more than 200 m (in track, I was a sprinter, not a runner), but I ran so he could run. It was a slight decline so it wasn't too bad, but it was much farther than 200 m. It was about a half a mile. For him, I kept it up all the way to the entrance. Well, since I hadn't planned to do that, I was out there, on the main road, running in my pajamas. The few cars that did pass probably had a good laugh.
Later, I decided to see just how much he knew. I knew that he knew 'sit', but he wouldn't really do it. I also realized, he knows 'lie down'. So, whipped out the treats from yesterday, and we worked on 'sit' with my hand signal, and 'lie down' with my hand signal. Eventually, I won't say the words, I'll just use my hand signals. He has caught on to my 'sit' hand signal pretty fast, but yes, he's testing me to see how serious I am, if I will say it more than once, if I'll give up if he doesn't do it...nope! Been through this before, dog! You aren't winning.
He even tried to jump on the bed and declare training over, I didn't budge. Let me tell you something, dogarino, you will never out stubborn Sakari, okay? I went through 24 hours of hell with her one day because she didn't want to be told to go to the bathroom. She didn't want to be told what to do, at all. And every 10 minutes, we'd go outside, stand for 5 minutes, Sakari would stare at me the entire time, and we'd go back in, I'd put her back in her crate for 10 minutes...we did that for twenty. four. hours!
It wasn't until during one of those 10 minute 'rests' that I looked up on the internet how to make my dog go to the bathroom. Lo and behold, there was an article. It was for dogs who may have had surgery - and they showed images. We went back out after her final 10 minutes, I gave her a chance, she just stared at me...so, I walked over to her, went to her backside, and started massaging until she peed against her will. I maniacally laughed for who knows how long, but a long, long time. She sulked the entire time. But from that point on, she listened to me. So, this dog is not going to out wait me. Been through it. I am stubborn, too.
He didn't even last a full minute of declaring training over. I stood my ground, he came back down off the bed, got in front of me, and sat. Congratulations. And I ended it there, since it was a positive.
I got back into bed because I still had time to sleep. He immediately cuddled right next to me, with my arm around him. I was talking to him, and when I looked over, he was looking right at me. I kept stealing glances, and he was staring at me the entire time. Sakari would look at me a lot, too, but she never just laid next to me staring at me.
I don't know what this dog's history is, so I've been trying to be very affectionate with him. I give him a ton of kisses, tell him he's a good boy all the time, give him hugs, pet him a lot...just want to let him know that he's safe.
Oh, and once again, I had to hold his chicken leg for him for breakfast. Soon, he'll take it out of my hands and devour it in seconds, like the other 2 did.
And now, I have to go work. We'll see how he does. I did a trial last night - a very short trial - no more than 15 minutes. I left him here while I ran to the store. When I got back, nothing was destroyed, everyone was getting along, but he was super whiny and all over me, as if I had been gone for hours. So - we'll see what happens today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiero2
Sounds like the start of a great relationship!
Velcro: very much a farmcollie thing. After all, they're bred to pay attention to Mr. (or Mrs.) Farmer in every detail.
Skittish: I would certainly believe you regarding the possibility of fear and negative experiences, but skittishness is also very much a farmcollie thing. A brave dog who stands his ground a bit too long, can take a hoof to the head, instantely removing that dog from the gene pool. A skittish dog who pays attention and MOVES will likely live long enough to learn when to be calm and strong.
These traits aren't found in every dog, and may not even be consistent among littermates. They are tendencies. You are right that they will have been shaped by his early experiences, tho. If I'd had more energy for it, mine would probably have benefitted from more dog socialization. I just didn't have the energy to make it a priority, and we've always had other priorities that came first. I manage things so it is only a minor inconvenience at times.
Dialing it back: Use whatever command comes easiest to you. It's consistency that counts. You can use "Barabajagal!" if it rolls off your tongue! Whistle, hand signal, word, no matter - consistency. I just try to break their focus. When they re-focus on me, they stop, at least for a moment, whatever they were doing. And that gets at least verbal validation. But I'm no expert on training! Lots of training gold nuggets out there in the dog-expert-book world. Although eventually you and Bogo will manage even without those expert gold nuggets! He'll be smart enough - given enough time!
I can't remember if the other 2 followed me everywhere - without me announcing 'road trip!' when I would get up to go downstairs to the kitchen or whatever, when I lived in a 2 story house in Maine. I don't know why I started doing that - maybe it was because they followed me so I just started saying it.
That's a good point about being around cows and bulls. I've only had Shasta and Sakari, and Sakari was never skittish, nor was Shasta (except he hated other dogs).
If the skittish thing is about self preservation, this dog will be fine.
I tried to look up alerting in BCs on the internet last night, and no one talked about it. I have watched several sheep herding videos over the years, so I have a guess as to what you mean by 'alerting'. Since I don't have a farm and sheep, I didn't think about 'alerting' beyond a guard dog at the door, alerting to someone at the door...which both of my dogs did, as most dogs do. I've never had a dog 'alert' while on a walk, with the very rare exceptions by Shasta, and the 2 exceptions by Pandora, but none of those people were running towards us.
Anyway, I know I can use whatever word I want, I was making the point that while I know there will be a signal, I wasn't sure how to even start training that. Redirecting the focus - now I have an idea. Seems to be a lot of 'redirecting the focus' in training, for all kinds of things.
Keir is an Irish Gaelic name, and means "black" or "dark". (The top part of him is dark black.) It is also a Scottish name, but originally Irish.
S. Chaser means "squirrel chaser". He bounces around on his hind legs whenever he sees a squirrel, and would chase them all through the woods if given the chance.
I chose a full name for him because many of the greats in his ancestry had full names or titles.
. . .
I can't remember if the other 2 followed me everywhere - without me announcing 'road trip!' when I would get up to go downstairs to the kitchen or whatever, when I lived in a 2 story house in Maine. I don't know why I started doing that - maybe it was because they followed me so I just started saying it.
That's a good point about being around cows and bulls. I've only had Shasta and Sakari, and Sakari was never skittish, nor was Shasta (except he hated other dogs).
If the skittish thing is about self preservation, this dog will be fine.
I tried to look up alerting in BCs on the internet last night, and no one talked about it. I have watched several sheep herding videos over the years, so I have a guess as to what you mean by 'alerting'. Since I don't have a farm and sheep, I didn't think about 'alerting' beyond a guard dog at the door, alerting to someone at the door...which both of my dogs did, as most dogs do. I've never had a dog 'alert' while on a walk, with the very rare exceptions by Shasta, and the 2 exceptions by Pandora, but none of those people were running towards us.
Anyway, I know I can use whatever word I want, I was making the point that while I know there will be a signal, I wasn't sure how to even start training that. Redirecting the focus - now I have an idea. Seems to be a lot of 'redirecting the focus' in training, for all kinds of things.
Sorry about the command thing - it's always a bit hard to tell what somebody knows and what they don't in a forum. Redirecting focus was a gold nugget for me, too, when I first heard the concept put into words.
Skittish can definitely be about survival, but it may also be fear, or just caution, expecting the possibility of a negative. Which is how we think of it for most dogs. I think a lot of people are familiar with fear-based skittishness these days. Back to farmcollies, though. I don't hear breeders talking about it, but I've seen it enough, and in action. There was one young male who was the example for my little story there. Too bold with the cattle. But what I've seen is often NOT your traditional fear-based skittishness, but more like a naturally cautious and slightly nervous behavior. One wouldn't want TOO much of it when breeding, but a touch could be useful. In Canaan dogs, it IS a recognized and talked-about trait, but they call it "sharpness". They are slow to trust.
I also don't hear people talking explicitly about alerting, and I can only suppose that is because it involves what most people would consider negative traits: barking, acting all guardy with strangers, etc etc. I'm sure you can think of stories. But I've seen it in mine, and heard enough individual stories and requests for help in several online breed groups I'm part of, to have realized that it is very definitely a trait in farmcollies. You may see it on your walks - and it could be because they are guarding you, or it could be because they feel like any territory you are on is valid territory. Mine are a little territorial about our regular running route. BTW - I ride a bike so they can run. I couldn't even do 200 meters these days. Alerting and guarding are probably from the same behavior pattern sources. I use alerting as a descriptive word, because that's what they do. The bark and act as ugly as necessary to get whatever they are barking at to leave. Or they bark so that you know there is something there. They act like they are a threat, but they are more about making sure everybody knows something is out there, and they are there if needed. You know what I mean, I think, barking plus whatever - teeth, hackles, charging (when that something gets close enough). These days that isn't popular behavior in dogs. Everybody wants dogs they can take to the dog park and not have to deal with drama.
I have heard some old hands talk about the dogs regarding their people as a resource to be guarded, just like food-guarding.
Forgive me while I hijack the subject, but only slightly, I think. We talked about how you can't find people talking about certain traits in a breed. I think that started with skittishness. In a breeder group I belong to today was a post, and I've copied just a bit of it, and deleted the breed identification. FWIW, it's not Border Collies, but a different farmcollie type. I think the guardiness/alerting functions are less strong, generally, in BC.
Quote:
For temperament, the ideal stud would be calm and chill around people. "DOGname" is on guard with strangers for the first five minutes, which has its advantages. However, I am hoping to create some diversity in the litter and balance out this trait and not intensify it, so the ideal stud would be friendly/relaxed with strangers. Yes, I know we are talking about an "breedname" here, but my other "breedname" from many years ago was happy to meet new people, so I know this is possible.
This is a specific reference to guardiness/alerting on strangers and/or strangeness, which is strong in this breed. Obviously, this standoffishness/sharpness is well-known amongst the old hands. But, I don't think I've ever seen it in a breed description.
I just thought this example might be of interest here.
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