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Old 10-10-2007, 04:37 AM
 
Location: Michigan
859 posts, read 2,150,042 times
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Good write up !
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Old 10-10-2007, 05:48 AM
 
Location: Arkansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APBT_Samara View Post
To a certain extent I agree with you. However I think for a good pet pedigree is just as important as a show dog. To show the AKC papers are needed. A pet owner really doesn't need the AKC papers, however since the dog is registered it has a known lineage and bloodline. If you want a sound pet make sure it comes from a reputable breeder and a healthy line, as well as dogs that don't have temperament issues. Hope you see what I mean. Keeping a quality dogs will come from a quality line.

I agree with you on the AKC (and other registries), it would be nice if they actually selected for quality. In some other countries you can "register" the litter as being on file but have limited registration on ALL the pups. This is not the breeders choice, it is done by the kennel club. Then when the dogs are adults they can be evaluated as being breeding quality or not and then given recognized registration.

In some countries there is no puppy registration period the dog can't be registered until it is evaluated as an adult. Similar to UKC registering a non UKC registered APBT. However the sad part is if you have a AKC or ADBA AST/APBT you must have the dog inspected before he/she can be UKC registered but if you have the worse looking, poor structure, bad temperament and bad health APBT that was registered as a pup from UKC parents you can go right ahead and breed that dog register the pups.

When you apply for single registration to the UKC it says the inspection is to help ensure quality of the APBT and has a little paragraph about it. So why don't they do this same thing to dogs who are already UKC? Instead of allowing all this crap to be bred/registered. Also this is only for APBT, the single registration of other breeds doesn't require the inspection from what I have seen.

It is true that some people mistake AKC for "quality". Simply being registered isn't enough, all it means is the dogs ancestors have been kept on file with the registry. People need to do more research. Its like the guy who paid $350 for his reg Pit Bull and said he got a dog with a good bloodline, papers and everything. He had no idea what bloodline (so couldn't factually say if it was good/bad), he just assumed since the dog was "expensive" (in his opinion) and had papers it must be a great dog. If they show/work the dogs, have health testing, temperament testing is always a plus, and the dogs in the pedigree match up to being the same quality, they have a good reputation and a great health guarantee thats where to go.

There are also people who think AKC is the only reputable registry in the world. They act like if its not AKC then its crap. While the UKC is a long time reputable registry and so are other foreign registries. On this other forum one person said something to the extent of they baulk at breeding APBT because they are not AKC FSS registered. The comment is senseless because their are reputable registries for the APBT and considering the AKC accepted APBTs for registry in 1936 under the name of AST they are not going to then later add them to the FSS program. Some how people have it in their head that all AKC dogs are quality and only AKC dogs are quality.

See that is the thing, AKC papers do not prove quality, temperment, or sometimes even lineage. Sadly just about anyone can have dogs with AKC papers. AKC does not check, they just take peoples word for it, people can litterly say one dog is the sire and realistically it could actually be another sire. Or the same can be said with the dam.

You see people that are selling puppies in the paper all the time that are "AKC registered champion bloodlines" sometimes these puppies will be greatly "over price" so I will act as a perspective buyer and go look at the dogs and puppies, well most of the time these dogs are not even up to stander ed, nor do they have a good disposition or temperament. I will call the people on it. It makes me very angry to see people that dont give a crap about the puppies or the dogs to be having puppies and then turning around and selling them for insane amounts of money.

We breed because we love the breed, because we want to help insure that boxers are kept as they should be.
We always have homes for our puppies before they are even born. All of the money we make goes back into the dogs and puppies. We use the money to provide food the our dogs and puppies, classes, vet care, flea and tick meds etc.
If we have a dog and dont think their temperament is quite right for breeding (IE to shy, to aggressive, etc) we will not breed them, but we also dont do what some "breeders" do and get rid of that dog because they are not right for breeding. We keep them and have them spayed or neutered and raise them as our pet.
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Michigan
859 posts, read 2,150,042 times
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Hey do you guys have a Website?
I cant buy from you being I am in michigan but I would love to see youre Babys
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:34 PM
 
1,179 posts, read 8,712,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherrenee View Post
See that is the thing, AKC papers do not prove quality, temperment, or sometimes even lineage. Sadly just about anyone can have dogs with AKC papers. AKC does not check, they just take peoples word for it, people can litterly say one dog is the sire and realistically it could actually be another sire. Or the same can be said with the dam.

You see people that are selling puppies in the paper all the time that are "AKC registered champion bloodlines" sometimes these puppies will be greatly "over price" so I will act as a perspective buyer and go look at the dogs and puppies, well most of the time these dogs are not even up to stander ed, nor do they have a good disposition or temperament. I will call the people on it. It makes me very angry to see people that dont give a crap about the puppies or the dogs to be having puppies and then turning around and selling them for insane amounts of money.

We breed because we love the breed, because we want to help insure that boxers are kept as they should be.
We always have homes for our puppies before they are even born. All of the money we make goes back into the dogs and puppies. We use the money to provide food the our dogs and puppies, classes, vet care, flea and tick meds etc.
If we have a dog and dont think their temperament is quite right for breeding (IE to shy, to aggressive, etc) we will not breed them, but we also dont do what some "breeders" do and get rid of that dog because they are not right for breeding. We keep them and have them spayed or neutered and raise them as our pet.
Its sad isn't it. That they don't have some type of inspection for people to be able to register their litters?

I do the same thing. We call people in the paper and they don't know the 1st thing about their dogs or breeding. They are just producing pups for $$. A lot of the questions they can't even answer or don't even know what we're talking about. SAD and yes it makes me angry too.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Southern New Hampshire
4,643 posts, read 13,955,713 times
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Default Breeding Requirements (long)(and completely off the original topic of Boxers...)

Back when I was actively involved in the breed and obedience rings, I used to do the same thing (call ads in the paper and be a clueless customer). My breed was GSD's, and these backyard breeders who didn't have a clue, invariably the "Ch lines" were from several generations back, temperment were questionable at best. No testing, no xrays, no OFA for hips, never mind elbows! I got out of the dog fancy when I saw the health and temperment of my favorite breed sink to an awful low...

In America, we have the freedom to breed whatever to whatever (even make new breeds like the Labrodoodle) and let our dogs make money for us (look at the mills and the pet stores!) In Germany, and other European countries, there are requirements that each dog must meet before it is bred, if you want litters that are registrable. Not sure about other breeds, but here is the requirements for German Shepherd Dogs:

(this is from Breeding Requirements for German Shepherds)
(1) The dog must be titled at least to a VPG I. Please refer to my discussion on Schutzhund to understand the requirements on dog and handler of this demanding breed test. As mentioned above, Schutzhund (SchH) is now called VPG. VPG actually originated in Germany as the major part of a breed test for German Shepherd Dogs. The VPG portion was the working requirements ensuring the dog could work in tracking, obedience and protection. Herding dogs meeting requirements for HGH were also considered to have passed this working portion of the breed test.

(2)The breed test ensures the dog has proper physical characteristics in addition to the working ability. Therefore, the dog must have passable hips certified through an acceptable organization such as the SV (German Shepherd Dog Club of Germany) or OFA (Orthopedic Foundation of American). While passable elbows are not yet a formal requirement, we recommend that the dog's elbows be x-rayed at the same time as the hips.

(3)In addition to the good hip requirement, the dog must have earned an AD. The AD requires the dog to run 12+ miles while the handler bicycles beside him holding him on a lead. This is an endurance test for the dog and does require conditioning and training. Often the dog's pads are sensitive because they have not been properly conditioned, so the dog will fail. The AD is designed to weed out dogs that are structurally incorrect and unable to negotiate the run. After the run, the handler and dog do an obedience routine. The extent of the routine varies with the judge. Some judges are very demanding, and others simply have you recall your dog.

(4)And your dog's structure must be evaluated by a conformation judge and earn at least a G rating. The top rating for a dog with a working title in a local show is V, which is excellent. The next level is SG which means “very good” and then G meaning “good.” These rankings are not given until the dog is at least a year of age. So, you should go ahead and enter your dog in a German style conformation show and get the evaluation. You may also use your show rating (SG, G) latter for your breed survey after your dog is titled. Keep in mind that a dog cannot have a V rating until they have a working title. The VA (excellent select) is a rating reserved for the large national show.

(5)There are other requirements regarding dentition, size, color, overall structure, temperament, sound sureness and working ability that are tested at the time of the breed survey. Also, every dog breed surveyed must have a tattoo preferably in the right ear. Other locations for the tattoo are acceptable. Most of these topics will be touched on below:
Breeding Requirements for German Shepherds

What Is Schutzhund?

The word Schutzhund originated in Germany and literally means "protection dog." Schutzhund began in 1901 as a test to evaluate German Shepherd breeding suitability. This test evaluates the physical and mental attributes that make this breed a working partner with man. A Schutzhund title is indicated after the dog's name by SchH1, SchH2 or SchH3. The SchH1 is the first level while the SchH3 means the dog has achieved the highest and most difficult level.

Schutzhund maintains a critical role as part of the breed evaluation test but has also developed into a highly competitive sport with trials held all over the world. Other breeds participate in the sport of Schutzhund, but the vast majority of dogs are German Shepherds. Schutzhund is intended to demonstrate the dog's intelligence and utility along with mental stability, endurance, structural efficiency, scenting ability, willingness to work, courage and trainability.

There are three parts in a Schutzhund trial. The dog must pass all three parts in order to be awarded a title. Throughout all three phases, the dog is evaluated for temperament. This sport is fun and enjoyable but also represents dedication and a significant investment of time.

The Tracking Phase

The tracking phase includes a temperament test conducted by the judge to ensure the dog is approachable and relates well to people. The judge approaches the dog which is kept on a loose lead. The handler is then asked to walk his dog on a loose lead in a group of neutral people. If the dog demonstrates any shyness or aggressiveness, it is immediately dismissed from the trial.

The track is laid by a person walking on a surface such as dirt or grass. The track is aged for a period of time, and contains several turns and several small articles which the dog is expected to indicate. The dog is expected to stay on the track, make the turns accurately and demonstrate a deep nose throughout the track. The dog must indicate the articles usually by laying down with the article between its front paws. The tracking phase is a test of the dog's trainability and ability to scent, as well as its mental and physical endurance. The dog must receive a score of at least 70 points in order to pass this phase.

The Obedience Phase

Schutzhund obedience consists of several on-lead and off-lead heeling exercises which demonstrate the dog's willing attention to the handler. The heeling exercise involves the dog moving through a group of people while being very attentive to the handler and readily working through the obedience routine while another dog is on the field in an honoring down stay.

There is a gun shot test administered during the off-lead heeling and during the down-stay. The dog must not show any reaction to the shots being fired. The gun shot temperament test ensures that the dog is sound sure and will not react to sharp noises. German Shepherds are used in a variety of police, service and protection work requiring exposure to noises. Since sound sensitivity is in large part a genetic trait, the gun shot test is important so that only sound sure dogs will pass. If a dog shows any reaction (either aggression or fear) to gun shots, it is immediately dismissed from the trial.

The obedience phase consists of other exercises similar to AKC obedience including the sit-in-motion, down-in-motion, stand-in-motion and recalls to the handler. The dog must retrieve a dumbbell of various weights on the flat, over a one-meter high jump and over a six-foot A-frame. The dog is expected to perform a send-away which involves running in a straight direction away from the handler on command and must perform the honoring down while another dog and handler work on the field.

The obedience exercises get more demanding with each level of Schutzhund. All exercises for a SchH3 are done off-lead. Throughout the obedience phase, the judge evaluates the dog not only on the accuracy and correctness of the exercise but on the willingness with which the dog performs. The dog must demonstrate accuracy, speed and a willing attitude in order to be awarded full points. All of the obedience exercises are tests of the dog's temperament, structural efficiencies, and its willingness to work.

The obedience phase also tests the handler's ability to train. It is a beautiful picture to see a handler and dog working as a happy team. A passing score for obedience is 70 points.

The Protection Phase

The protection phase tests the dog's courage, strength and agility. Throughout the protection phase, the handler must demonstrate absolute control of the dog.

The first part of protection consists of "running the blinds." The blinds sometimes resemble canvas teepees and represent hiding places for the "bad guy" who is actually the helper or decoy. In SchH1, the dog searches 2 blinds, but in SchH2 and SchH3, the dog searches 6 blinds crisscrossing a soccer size field. When the dog finds the helper in the 6th blind, he must energetically approach barking continuously showing guarding behavior without touching the helper.

Later the dog must pursue the helper when he attempts an escape and hold the grip on a burlap sleeve fully and firmly even while being hit with a padded stick. The stick hits are done by an experienced helper and administered carefully to not injure the dog. The hits do demonstrate clearly the dog's courage under attack. If a dog leaves the helper when he administers the stick hits, the dog is excused from the trial. The strong dog actually grips the sleeve harder upon the stick hits showing strong courage and fight drive.

The dog must also show tremendous control during the back transport. The handler and dog are several paces back following the helper. Suddenly the helper turns to attack the handler. The dog without verbal command should immediately launch himself at the helper with a full, hard and calm grip on the sleeve.

The final and most dramatic test is the pursuit. On direction from the judge, the handler and dog go to one end of the field while the helper goes to the opposite end of the field. The helper aggressively moves towards the handler and dog. The dog must remain calm and focused while this is occurring. At the judge's signal, the handler releases the dog who must again pursue the helper with courage and engage with a full and hard grip.

In all instances where the dog grips the sleeve, it must release from the sleeve at the handler's direction or when the helper discontinues the fight. The handler is allowed three commands to get the dog to release the sleeve. If the dog does not release during any of the gripping phases, it is excused from the trial.

During the entire protection phase, the dog must be obedient to the handler. If the handler does not have this control, serious point deductions will occur or the dog will be excused. The dog is judged by its overall drive to perform this work and its courage and hardness in pursuing the helper and taking stick hits. The judge also wants a grip on the sleeve that is full, hard and calm even when the dog is being strongly challenged by the helper. A passing score for protection is 80 points, and the dog is also evaluated as pronounced or sufficient. The dog must pass all three of these phases at a single trial (usually in one day) in order to be awarded a Schutzhund title.

For the handler, the title signifies a major accomplishment for many months and years of hard training. For the dog, the title is a major step towards meeting breeding requirements.

Last edited by Valerie C; 10-12-2007 at 07:45 AM.. Reason: added SchH info
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:19 PM
 
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One very important thing for high-energy dogs is to exercise them regularly. It's kind of like a kid who is wired on sugar; you wouldn't just send them to bed while still on the sugar high, would you? So walk the dog to help it be a good, calm member of the family.

When dealing with a strong breed, I find that putting a halter on them helps to reduce the "tug" on the leash and to reduce the chance of their walking you.

Last word of advice would be a class to help both of you. Training classes are as much for the owner--if not more so--than for the dog. We need to learn how to communicate in a way that the dog can understand. We have to guide them in becoming a good citizen and family member.

Good luck!
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:45 PM
 
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I love Boxers thanks for the pixs!
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:41 AM
 
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Back to boxers:

First, let me say that they are wonderful dogs.

If you're seriously considering getting a boxer, I would suggest going to local dog shows. Watch the boxers in the ring and talk to the handlers/owners (AFTER THE CLASS) and ask about a puppy - if it's a puppy you're after.

The reason I suggest this instead of backyard breeders is that boxers are known to vets as 'cancer factories.' They get cancer. Lots of different types. A LOT. One of my friends has had three different boxers in the past 12 years. While his current boxer has a cardiomyopathy (disorder of the heart muscle) and is on heart medication, each of his two prior boxers had cancers. Multiple kinds of cancer: hepatocellular carcinoma (liver cancer), mast cell tumors (a kind of skin/connective tissue cancer) and a tumor of the spinal cord.

Thus, you want to get your pup from the BEST, most reliable source. And that would be people who breed dogs to improve the breed, not make money. And, besides, going to the shows is fun and you might learn something!

If you're NOT looking for a puppy, PLEASE consider rescue! There are so many deserving dogs in rescue. They did nothing wrong- they were just born, are no longer 'cute puppies' and were surrendered.
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Old 07-27-2008, 07:12 AM
 
Location: "The Sunshine State"
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My personal opinion is that with your small children and another one on the way a boxer would be a handful! They need alot of training and bigtime socialization. I would highly recommend a more laid back breed such as a golden mix or lab mix. Visit your local shelter and please adopt an animal desperate for a loving home. I would even suggest an older dog that has been already housetrained....maybe 2 or 3 years old! One that is out of the puppy stage. And I hope you have a fenced yard! Take my advice, you will be happy in the end and have a wonderful dog that will thank you for the rest of its life and will fit in wonderfully with the family! Remember one thing, never get a pet for the children to take care of, it is your responsibility!
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Old 07-27-2008, 07:31 AM
 
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Not to discourage you but our boxer was equal to 10 dogs, she was very energetic, thank goodness we had a fenced-in yard and she could burn off some of her energy there but along the fence, it looked like a racetrack b/c she'd run back and forth as neighbors walked by (quiet neighborhood btw, not a lot of neighbors), the molding by our windows had gouges from her nails as she was always looking out the window and running back and forth to check out what was going on outside. Years ago most ppl had no crates. She was raised w/ our kids and was fine w/ them but wasn't thrilled w/ other kids. We did take her to classes which helped (she was our first family dog) but I agree w/ Blondie, would adopt from a rescue where they know the temperment and personality, how the dog is w/ kids etc - 2 or 3 yrs is the perfect age and it'll be much easier on yourself w/o having to deal w/ housetraining, puppy biting etc (the dog may have an accident or 2 in the beginning as it's going to a totally new environment and you'll be getting used to each other). Shelters have lovely dogs too, just make sure they have enough background info or the dog's been temperment tested to give you a good idea how it'll interact w/ your kids.
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