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All around solid post, Joss. I just want to reply to a couple specific things, though.
In a dusty drawer of every city planners' office of every major city in the country is a set of plans for a major project that never saw the light of day. That Pueblo has them is not significant. Colorado Springs has had its setbacks over the years. Denver has as well. Perhaps you should count yourself lucky, though. Most skyscrapers designed in the 1970s are absolute eyesores today. I'd rather Pueblo look the way it does today than have some hideous 30 story bland 70s era tower botching up the cityscape from every angle. I'm glad Colorado Springs' skyline is under developed for a city of its size considering the timeframe in which it blew up as a major city. They had height restrictions for many years, too. I believe those restrictions have been lifted now, but I have no doubt they saved the city from devolving into a series of boxy visual atrocities. They already have a couple as it is. At least regulations today are more mindful of longterm aesthetics than they were back in the 1970s.
I know no one development is guaranteed but the point I was trying to make was back in the 1960's and even early 1970's the economic climate was much different in Pueblo. Then everything changed. Not just in Pueblo but every manufacturing city in the USA. To put it in perspective it would be as if every singe base in Colorado Springs closed up in the next 3 years. How would that impact the city and planed developments? That is what happened to Pueblo and the city leaders had to change the way they did things and fast.
The pictures I saw I liked and that is when Denver started their sky scraper boom too and I liked the sky line in Denver in the early 1980's. Had this economic collapse not have happened I am not saying Pueblo would have the same sky line as Denver but I am convinced it would be larger then the sky line of Colorado Springs. I do think that I will get to see some high rises built but not for a few years once this economy recovers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll
Also, I'm unclear what you mean by "mandated growth." A city cannot mandate itself to grow. They can take steps to attract businesses and residents, but it cannot just make a decree to grow and it will so. If anything I think it's evident growth in Colorado Springs far outpaced what local leaders expected over the decades, considering some of the city's infrastructure shortages today. Also, don't delude yourself into thinking the city's growth is directly tied to the military presence there. I'm sure that has had an affect, but it does not fully explain the steady uphill gain in population. The city went from 70,000 in 1960 to 135,000 in 1970. That's nearly doubling in size. You can't point to the military as the only reason that growth occurred. You certainly can't point to the military as the only reason substantial growth continues to occur in the area.
It has been the military. Once they got 5 bases and the USAF Academy that meant all the defense contractors would move there and that is what I meant by mandated growth. Even today the GDP is over 50% directly related to the military there and even more indirectly. Had the Springs not got the military they would most likely only be slightly larger then Pueblo. Another example is Orlando. The theme parks mandated that it would grow as at one time Pueblo was larger and now the Orlando MSA is about the same size as the Denver MSA.
The pictures I saw I liked and that is when Denver started their sky scraper boom too and I liked the sky line in Denver in the early 1980's. Had this economic collapse not have happened I am not saying Pueblo would have the same sky line as Denver but I am convinced it would be larger then the sky line of Colorado Springs. I do think that I will get to see some high rises built but not for a few years once this economy recovers.
Denver's skyline really took off in the 1980s. Had it taken off in the 1970s it would probably be one of the more hideous of skylines in America. The 1980s were quite a bit better than the 1970s for skyscraper design. Not that the bar was really all that high. But 1801 California and the Wells Fargo Tower, both completed in 1983, were pretty well designed by early 1980s standards. Republic Plaza (1984) took absolutely no creative thinking design wise but the facade's reflective properties sort of help it overcome its bland shape. 1999 Broadway (1985) looks plain from some angles, but has that church at its base and that end of the building curves around it. These four buildings have aged well compared to a lot of other buildings of that era and earlier.
I've never seen nor heard of any proposed plans for skyscrapers in Pueblo from the 1970s. I don't doubt they existed, but I have no knowledge of them. With that said, I can't help but feel the city is better off without dated ugly towers. The dated towers in Denver sort of hide between some of the newer, nicer designed towers. Towers in Pueblo wouldn't have that luxury. Maybe something better will develop in the near future. Like I said earlier, I think the focus on street level vibrancy is much more important, though. I'll take a well-designed 6-8 story mixed use building today that brings retail space, residential space, sidewalk cafes, and foot traffic over a 30 story building 10 years from now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie
It has been the military. Once they got 5 bases and the USAF Academy that meant all the defense contractors would move there and that is what I meant by mandated growth. Even today the GDP is over 50% directly related to the military there and even more indirectly. Had the Springs not got the military they would most likely only be slightly larger then Pueblo. Another example is Orlando. The theme parks mandated that it would grow as at one time Pueblo was larger and now the Orlando MSA is about the same size as the Denver MSA.
Okay, I see what you mean on mandated growth. It seems like an odd word choice, but I see what you're getting at now that you've explained it.
"It has been the military."
I'll have to politely disagree with you on that one. I went back to 1960, but if you take it back one more decade you'd know Colorado Springs' growth explosion actually predates the significant military buildup in the area, which really was in the 1960s and 1970s. Colorado Springs went from 45,000 in 1950 to 70,000 in 1960. A city of 45,000 gaining 25,000 is pretty significant. I think it's fair to say the military presence and defense industry contractors helped, but once again, I seriously doubt it can fully explain a city nearly doubling in population in one decade. And it certainly cannot explain why the city continues to grow, because military inflow has been level and even declining in recent years.
Also, it does no good to speculate alternative history. You can do that to no end. What if Colorado Springs didn't get the military? How do you know the alternative history? How do you know something better would not have developed? How do you know Pueblo would be significantly larger even without the economic bust of the 1980s? Some towns just don't grow, even with a good economy. What if Denver had not succeeding in making itself into a rail hub in its early days? Would it be the city it is today?
Point is, all these things did happen and we'll never fully know what the alternative outcomes could be. For every speculation there is an equal and opposite speculation.
Denver's skyline really took off in the 1980s. Had it taken off in the 1970s it would probably be one of the more hideous of skylines in America. The 1980s were quite a bit better than the 1970s for skyscraper design. Not that the bar was really all that high. But 1801 California and the Wells Fargo Tower, both completed in 1983, were pretty well designed by early 1980s standards. Republic Plaza (1984) took absolutely no creative thinking design wise but the facade's reflective properties sort of help it overcome its bland shape. 1999 Broadway (1985) looks plain from some angles, but has that church at its base and that end of the building curves around it. These four buildings have aged well compared to a lot of other buildings of that era and earlier.
I've never seen nor heard of any proposed plans for skyscrapers in Pueblo from the 1970s. I don't doubt they existed, but I have no knowledge of them. With that said, I can't help but feel the city is better off without dated ugly towers. The dated towers in Denver sort of hide between some of the newer, nicer designed towers. Towers in Pueblo wouldn't have that luxury. Maybe something better will develop in the near future. Like I said earlier, I think the focus on street level vibrancy is much more important, though. I'll take a well-designed 6-8 story mixed use building today that brings retail space, residential space, sidewalk cafes, and foot traffic over a 30 story building 10 years from now.
Had the economy not tanked like it did in Pueblo we would have seen more high rises built in the 1980's too. My point is the economy was growing we just got a new lake and everything looked up for Pueblo till the steel industry collapsed over night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll
Okay, I see what you mean on mandated growth. It seems like an odd word choice, but I see what you're getting at now that you've explained it.
"It has been the military."
I'll have to politely disagree with you on that one. I went back to 1960, but if you take it back one more decade you'd know Colorado Springs' growth explosion actually predates the significant military buildup in the area, which really was in the 1960s and 1970s. Colorado Springs went from 45,000 in 1950 to 70,000 in 1960. A city of 45,000 gaining 25,000 is pretty significant. I think it's fair to say the military presence and defense industry contractors helped, but once again, I seriously doubt it can fully explain a city nearly doubling in population in one decade. And it certainly cannot explain why the city continues to grow, because military inflow has been level and even declining in recent years.
Also, it does no good to speculate alternative history. You can do that to no end. What if Colorado Springs didn't get the military? How do you know the alternative history? How do you know something better would not have developed? How do you know Pueblo would be significantly larger even without the economic bust of the 1980s? Some towns just don't grow, even with a good economy. What if Denver had not succeeding in making itself into a rail hub in its early days? Would it be the city it is today?
Point is, all these things did happen and we'll never fully know what the alternative outcomes could be. For every speculation there is an equal and opposite speculation.
I agree its speculation on what would of happened had the Springs not got the military but its not speculation to know they were the main reason the springs saw the growth it did. They actually got the military in the 1940's and that is when they really started to grow. It just went faster as the bases got larger and more defense contractors moved in.
Best way to improve Pueblo (ditto Trinidad and Colo Spgs) would be tear up I-25 that bisects the city(s), re-route it well outside and around the city, build local at-grade feeder streets into/out of the city and make it a low-rise town with walkable neighborhoods, bike lanes and transit. That would restore / re-invent true quality of life and be a magnet but it will not happen any more than gleaming skyscrapers..... unless we want to be China or Dubai and build cities full of empty gleaming shiny glass towers.
I never knew you were such a urbanist. Honestly I like some urbanist ideas but that is to urban for me.
I agree its speculation on what would of happened had the Springs not got the military but its not speculation to know they were the main reason the springs saw the growth it did. They actually got the military in the 1940's and that is when they really started to grow. It just went faster as the bases got larger and more defense contractors moved in.
You need to study the history of each individual base in the area. Ft. Carson was all but shuttered after WWII until the 1960s. Some years during the 1950s there were fewer than 600 soldiers stationed there. Peterson did not become a fully operational base until the 1970s. Before then it was a "facility" not fully staffed. The AFA did not welcome its first class until 1959. I think the first few classes actually conducted their training and academics at Lowry AFB up in Denver until construction of the campus was complete...in the early 1960s. NORAD did not move into the Cheyenne Mountain facility until some time in the 1960s. Try as you might, you cannot use the military to fully explain the city's population growth explosion. The surge pre-dates the military having a significant footprint in the area.
You need to study the history of each individual base in the area. Ft. Carson was all but shuttered after WWII until the 1960s. Some years during the 1950s there were fewer than 600 soldiers stationed there. Peterson did not become a fully operational base until the 1970s. Before then it was a "facility" not fully staffed. The AFA did not welcome its first class until 1959. I think the first few classes actually conducted their training and academics at Lowry AFB up in Denver until construction of the campus was complete...in the early 1960s. NORAD did not move into the Cheyenne Mountain facility until some time in the 1960s. Try as you might, you cannot use the military to fully explain the city's population growth explosion. The surge pre-dates the military having a significant footprint in the area.
I have studied it a lot and those dates to correlate to when the Springs stated to really take off. Either way my point is more about Pueblo as the city was growing a lot back then to and optimism was high it would continue with developments etc. That is until the economy crashed and not just for Pueblo but for every manufacturing town.
I have studied it a lot and those dates to correlate to when the Springs stated to really take off.
I think we're at an impasse on that. I don't think you can study the history of these installations an rightly conclude they triggered the population growth in Colorado Springs. The growth started first in the 1950s and the defense industry accelerated it in the 1960s. But nobody said we had to agree and this thread is about Pueblo, not Colorado Springs.
I think we're at an impasse on that. I don't think you can study the history of these installations an rightly conclude they triggered the population growth in Colorado Springs. The growth started first in the 1950s and the defense industry accelerated it in the 1960s. But nobody said we had to agree and this thread is about Pueblo, not Colorado Springs.
Fair enough. As long as Pueblo keeps growing even if its slow and steady I will be happy.
I've heard Joss and mcgowdog mention a few of these places and events. A friend linked this on FB last night so I thought I'd share here.
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
(Joss, let us know if you see yourself in any of these pictures!)
I saw and while some of it is true some of it just seems like a commercial for local restaurants. Bingo Buger and Hop Scotch Bakery really? They are ok and I have been to both but to say they are what Pueblo identifies with is odd at best.
Last edited by Yac; 06-26-2014 at 05:55 AM..
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