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Stop trying to propose a street car to nowhere which I can only see being used by people by UC or Clifton, or street trash using. This isn't going to MAGICALLY make Over the Rhine any better, all it will make is a bunch of street cars with graffiti inside of them and crime to be honest.
Something better would be...
Actual gentrification in Over the Rhine INSTEAD of restoration projects.
Why?
Gentrification is proven in many other cities to bring much higher class people to the projects and has an effect in the area, for example...
New 4 floored condominium complex which is shaped like a square with a parking garage in the middle and pool up top.
OR
Remodeled house, sure it is preserving history, but does this seem to make Over the Rhine, or any other area better for that matter? If I were able to join the ranks of Cincinnati Officials in zoning, I would start gentrifying, but not overdoing it...
Leave some historical areas be, a city isn't a city without a reason to live or visit here besides sleeping, work, and deciding which restaurant or strip mall to go to today.
Cincinnati DESPERATELY NEEDS to draw people BACK to the city limits! Fast!
Why?
It's obviously not going up in population, sure, the overall metro continues to grow, but it leaves the city behind... Take the Banks for example, from what it looks like from many peoples standpoint, a big step forward, and it actually is successful with tenants for residential and commercial coming in on a good steady flow.
Tell me, what makes you want to live in an area more?
A couple of repainted houses with upgraded interiors, or...
- Projects like the Banks going up in Over the Rhine, condominiums with businesses on the ground floor.
- Parks adjoining these complexes.
It's obvious what the city needs to do, but the people running the city are TOO DAMN STUBBORN. We have the tools to do it, just not a high enough IQ apparently, I guess a stone age trolley care to bring back nostalgia will bring more people to the city than projects like The Banks going up...
BHiggins,
I agree to some extent with what you are saying, but it seems that you are describing an ends rather than an approach, and as we all know, the devil is in the details.
First of all, the U.S. economy for the most part is capitalist, not command based. The city itself is not a developer, and the city manager doesn't get to decide how many of what types of private construction is initiated. The city does have some tools at its disposal, including tax incentives, a public transportation budget, and partnerships with organizations like 3CDC. While I am not a streetcar supporter, I have to give the proponents of the development credit for trying to make the city better.
When it comes to restoration vs. new development, I think there is a place for both. Just because something is old doesn't make it valuable, and I think that liberal use of a bulldozer in some areas around downtown, particularly on the West End, would do a lot of good. On the other hand, some of the construction in Over the Rhine is craftsmanship at a level that is impossible to duplicate today, and it causes the area to be a destination rather than just another new development like every other city in the country has. Personally, I would not want to live in a 'restored' old building, but many people do. I briefly lived in my wife's old condo on Milton Street in a beautiful old 4-story building with long staircases, hand crafted wooden windows, and curved plaster 10 foot vaulted ceilings. While it was nice, it was horrendously expensive to maintain, drafty in the winter, hot in the summer, and there was really nothing we could do because any upgrades had to be done in agreement with a historical building code that made modern conveniences prohibitively expensive.
Finally, I agree with you that city leadership is sorely lacking, and it really sad commentary on our city that I feel that the current city leadership is better than what we have had in recent years. A few years ago we had a pack of idiots(with a few notable exceptions) that I would not trust cutting my grass, much less managing my city. I think we are still suffering from their influence. I think we need a smart, charismatic mayor that has enough force of personality to get things done.
... and I think that liberal use of a bulldozer in some areas around downtown, particularly on the West End, would do a lot of good. On the other hand, some of the construction in Over the Rhine is craftsmanship at a level that is impossible to duplicate today, and it causes the area to be a destination rather than just another new development like every other city in the country has.
To be fair, the west end has as good or better architecture than OTR, so we should probably leave the bulldozers in their bays for now. Almost all of the south side of the old central ave business district in the west end is still intact - thankfully nobody had "better ideas" about what to do with it. Here is the part i'm talking about, this is the familiar view from Central Parkway - http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...50.91,,0,-9.44
Stop trying to propose a street car to nowhere which I can only see being used by people by UC or Clifton, or street trash using. This isn't going to MAGICALLY make Over the Rhine any better, all it will make is a bunch of street cars with graffiti inside of them and crime to be honest.
Something better would be...
Actual gentrification in Over the Rhine INSTEAD of restoration projects.
Why?
Gentrification is proven in many other cities to bring much higher class people to the projects and has an effect in the area, for example...
New 4 floored condominium complex which is shaped like a square with a parking garage in the middle and pool up top.
OR
Remodeled house, sure it is preserving history, but does this seem to make Over the Rhine, or any other area better for that matter? If I were able to join the ranks of Cincinnati Officials in zoning, I would start gentrifying, but not overdoing it...
Leave some historical areas be, a city isn't a city without a reason to live or visit here besides sleeping, work, and deciding which restaurant or strip mall to go to today.
Cincinnati DESPERATELY NEEDS to draw people BACK to the city limits! Fast!
Why?
It's obviously not going up in population, sure, the overall metro continues to grow, but it leaves the city behind... Take the Banks for example, from what it looks like from many peoples standpoint, a big step forward, and it actually is successful with tenants for residential and commercial coming in on a good steady flow.
Tell me, what makes you want to live in an area more?
A couple of repainted houses with upgraded interiors, or...
- Projects like the Banks going up in Over the Rhine, condominiums with businesses on the ground floor.
- Parks adjoining these complexes.
It's obvious what the city needs to do, but the people running the city are TOO DAMN STUBBORN. We have the tools to do it, just not a high enough IQ apparently, I guess a stone age trolley care to bring back nostalgia will bring more people to the city than projects like The Banks going up...
Agreed?
No. 1: "Only being used by people by UC or Clifton" ... yea, that would be such a waste if it's only used by the literally tens of thousands of UC students, faculty, staff, visitors, sports fans, etc. on campus just about every single day and the rest of the multitudes of people who live and work in and around the second biggest employment center in the city.
No. 2: "Street trash"? Classy, real classy.
And if you're such a big fan of gentrification, I'm not entirely sure why you're not pleased with what's currently taking place in Over-the-Rhine. Have you seen Vine Street between Central Parkway and Liberty lately? Washington Park? The new SCPA? Plans for Music Hall and surrounding areas? A lot of Republic Street? Findlay Market? This stuff takes significant time and costs huge amounts of money; the results we are now seeing are quite a bit more than "a couple of repainted houses." Compared to where the neighborhood was just a decade ago, I'd say its current state is nothing short of remarkable. A streetcar will only accelerate this process and draw even more businesses and high-rent developments, which is what you seem to want.
No. 1: "Only being used by people by UC or Clifton" ... yea, that would be such a waste if it's only used by the literally tens of thousands of UC students, faculty, staff, visitors, sports fans, etc. on campus just about every single day and the rest of the multitudes of people who live and work in and around the second biggest employment center in the city.
No. 2: "Street trash"? Classy, real classy.
The point is, what do you see having a more effective and long term effect of the city? A little trolley car which I think is a waste of money or developments in Over the Rhine?
Stop trying to propose a street car to nowhere which I can only see being used by people by UC or Clifton, or street trash using. This isn't going to MAGICALLY make Over the Rhine any better, all it will make is a bunch of street cars with graffiti inside of them and crime to be honest.
Something better would be...
Actual gentrification in Over the Rhine INSTEAD of restoration projects.
Why?
Gentrification is proven in many other cities to bring much higher class people to the projects and has an effect in the area, for example...
New 4 floored condominium complex which is shaped like a square with a parking garage in the middle and pool up top.
OR
Remodeled house, sure it is preserving history, but does this seem to make Over the Rhine, or any other area better for that matter? If I were able to join the ranks of Cincinnati Officials in zoning, I would start gentrifying, but not overdoing it...
Leave some historical areas be, a city isn't a city without a reason to live or visit here besides sleeping, work, and deciding which restaurant or strip mall to go to today.
Cincinnati DESPERATELY NEEDS to draw people BACK to the city limits! Fast!
Why?
It's obviously not going up in population, sure, the overall metro continues to grow, but it leaves the city behind... Take the Banks for example, from what it looks like from many peoples standpoint, a big step forward, and it actually is successful with tenants for residential and commercial coming in on a good steady flow.
Tell me, what makes you want to live in an area more?
A couple of repainted houses with upgraded interiors, or...
- Projects like the Banks going up in Over the Rhine, condominiums with businesses on the ground floor.
- Parks adjoining these complexes.
It's obvious what the city needs to do, but the people running the city are TOO DAMN STUBBORN. We have the tools to do it, just not a high enough IQ apparently, I guess a stone age trolley care to bring back nostalgia will bring more people to the city than projects like The Banks going up...
Agreed?
There seems to be a lot of anxiety around the growth (or lack thereof) of the city. I really don't agree with this. Bigger is not better. Really. Its a fact. Look it up. Larger cities have disproportionately larger problems. Everything from crime to environment to health. I'm perfectly happy for Cincinnati not to grow at all, even to shrink.
The economic truism to be applied here is that "if want more of something, subsidize it, if you want less of it, tax it." I wouldn't spend the first dollar to support the homeless. I would de-fund publicly funded housing. I'd ditch the two stadiums and say good byye to the sports teams. And, of course, to the slave center. And, why increase taxes? Do we want less income earners here? Less payroll? That is what you get when you increase taxes.
There seems to be a lot of anxiety around the growth (or lack thereof) of the city. I really don't agree with this. Bigger is not better. Really. Its a fact. Look it up. Larger cities have disproportionately larger problems.
Everything from crime
top five cities for violent crime per capita
Flint
Detroit
St Louis
New Haven, Conn
Memphis
Quote:
to environment
top five cities for air pollution Bakersfield, CA
Los Angeles, CA
Phoenix, AZ
Visalia, CA
Hanford, CA
Quote:
to health.
top five cities for poor health Oklahoma City
Louisville
Memphis
Birmingham
Detroit
top five cities by population
New York
Los Angeles
Chicago
Houston
Philadelphia
The point is, what do you see having a more effective and long term effect of the city? A little trolley car which I think is a waste of money or developments in Over the Rhine?
I don't see these two things being mutually exclusive. This is a classic case of one helping the other: The streetcar will spur additional development in OTR; successful developments (particularly residential) will help assure the streetcar's success.
Is the current proposed version of the streetcar the best possible rail transit plan for Cincinnati? No, I don't believe so. I think it absolutely needs to be extended to the university area as soon as possible in order to maximize its value. Unfortunately, it's the only plan we have right now and it's the only transit plan with any chance of becoming reality in this city anytime soon.
Ideally, in my opinion, light rail lines would link downtown to the northern and eastern suburbs and south to CVG, utilizing the underground riverfront transit center and, yes, even the subway tunnels underneath Central Parkway (which studies have shown are perfectly capable of being used well into the future). Then, a limited streetcar could be used to link downtown to the UC/Clifton area, the Museum Center area, northern Kentucky riverfront communities such as Covington and Newport, the casino area and possibly even Mount Adams and Walnut Hills. I doubt anything remotely close to that will ever happen here, unfortunately. If it did, Cincinnati takes a major step forward in national and international stature.
The point is, what do you see having a more effective and long term effect of the city? A little trolley car which I think is a waste of money or developments in Over the Rhine?
The point is the world is not all about what you think. That "little trolley" that you think has no purpose other than to serve trashy people could put the gentrification in Over-the-Rhine on fastforeward, not to mention the core of Cincinnati. College students aren't trash, urbanites arent trash, just because these two groups of people dont own ford excursions to drive all by themselves and a 3000 sq. foot cookie cutter McMansion does not mean people are trash. And if Cincinnati isn't willing to think past the year 2000 yet and capitalize on everything it has to offer and use public rail transit to help achieve a status above "Decent" then that is the cities loss. There are other cities more than willing to use public transit to help propel their city into world class cities like Seattle, which is blossoming into a beautiful, educated, urban, world class city. The only reason Cincinnati can't achieve that status is because of the backwards thinking residents who have no clue what rail can do for a city. Do I think the street car is the best option? Hell no, but this metro can't get any worse on public transit than it already is so anyform of rail just about will help Cincinnati out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513
There seems to be a lot of anxiety around the growth (or lack thereof) of the city. I really don't agree with this. Bigger is not better. Really. Its a fact. Look it up. Larger cities have disproportionately larger problems. Everything from crime to environment to health. I'm perfectly happy for Cincinnati not to grow at all, even to shrink.
The economic truism to be applied here is that "if want more of something, subsidize it, if you want less of it, tax it." I wouldn't spend the first dollar to support the homeless. I would de-fund publicly funded housing. I'd ditch the two stadiums and say good byye to the sports teams. And, of course, to the slave center. And, why increase taxes? Do we want less income earners here? Less payroll? That is what you get when you increase taxes.
You realize cities have to grow to thrive right? Don't tell me Detroit is better now that it was 50 years ago because it lost half of it's population. And only a complete fool would say "good bye" to the Bengals and the Reds regardless of how good or bad they may be. Those two teams bring people downtown! The heart and soul of the Cincinnati metro! That fuels lots of jobs and a chunk of the economy downtown and to just say good bye would be a catastrophe! And we as an entire country are very under taxed, reducing taxes at this point would only cause us to crumble harder. Large cities have higher taxes like New York and L.A. and they continue to grow so what exactly will lowering taxes in Cincinnati do for the city? Take away more police officers off the streets causing crime to go up, causing people to leave the city, generating less revenue, causing schools to get worse, causing more residents to leave the city, creating even less revenue. It's a cycle and taking away tax revenue by lowering taxes wont save this city. And the street car is an investment so don't play the "well the streetcar will cause officers to lose their jobs" game, that's total BS.
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