What's With The Streetcars? (Cleveland, Cincinnati: amusement park, weddings, income)

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Nomomo11

Wilson, the issue as it stands on the ballot, would unnecessarily put a hold on all planning or discussion of rail projects in this city for the next ten years. This is a result of COAST(radical anti-tax group) and Chris Smitherman's misguided attempts to circumnavigate the will of the voters as demonstrated in 2009, when that incarnation of the anti-transit amendment to the charter was soundly defeated at the polls. They have yet again made the language on the ballot so vague, that it prevents any rail from being built in the public right of ways which the city owns. Including those that are not actually streets (the abandoned Wasson rail line for instance). This is yet another attempt to push their radical right-wing agenda, regardless of the drubbing they received at the polls last year. It seems to me the vast majority of those opposed to this project live outside the city-limits, which seems to be why so many of the signatures they submitted turned out to be invalid. This is also evidenced by the fact that they only barely gathered enough valid signatures to get the issue on the ballot yet again.

Now I am not a whole-hearted streetcar supporter, but I know a bait and switch tactic when I see one. COAST's anti-public transit stance gives them little to no credibility in my book, as they are using this one issue to try and put a stop to any public rail in the city. This is not good policy, as we cannot know what the world will look like even a month from now, let alone ten years. To tie the hands of our elected officials for a decade seems excessive and an almost childish overreaction to losing the vote in 2009. Maybe if they spent more time working towards equitable transit than opposing all public transit they would have more credibility, but as it is, they have never worked for anyone but themselves, in their attempt to avoid contributing to this society at all costs.

The Wasson rail line should certainly be developed and never, never as a rail line. It is beautiful real estate through lovely terrain and needs to be a foot path or elongated park all the way from Withrow HS to Claire Station.

I can't speak for others but I live in the city, work in OTR and own three properties within a couple of blocks of the proposed trolley track. I oppose the trolley because I understand it and know it not to be in the best interests of the City.

We don't need trains of any kind in Cincinnati. They are technology of a century ago, long obsolete.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The Wasson rail line should certainly be developed and never, never as a rail line. It is beautiful real estate through lovely terrain and needs to be a foot path or elongated park all the way from Withrow HS to Claire Station.

I can't speak for others but I live in the city, work in OTR and own three properties within a couple of blocks of the proposed trolley track. I oppose the trolley because I understand it and know it not to be in the best interests of the City.

We don't need trains of any kind in Cincinnati. They are technology of a century ago, long obsolete.

Yet cities all over the U.S. and the the world are investing in passenger rail and building streetcar and light rail systems. Or they're significantly expanding already existing infrastructure.

Too bad they're not as visionary and forward-thinking as Cincinnati, huh?

Honestly, people in this town need to get out more to places other than Lake Cumberland and Dollywood.

[UKUKUK]

Portland, Oregon built a streetcar and attracted billions in investment within a half mile radius of the line.

You're a damn fool if you think it'll be bad for the city. Cleveland is lightyears ahead of Cinci for a good reason.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by UKUKUK

Portland, Oregon built a streetcar and attracted billions in investment within a half mile radius of the line.

You're a damn fool if you think it'll be bad for the city. Cleveland is lightyears ahead of Cinci for a good reason.

Portland enjoyed a building boom that had nothing to do with its rail other than it was directed to properties along the rail line. There has been endless commentary on this and if you accept that people in Portland would have bought new digs anyway, it was an enormous failure. Subsidy for their rail is as much as $20/trip/person.

Do you really think that people moved to Portland so they could ride the crappy rail? Check their schedule and you will see that it takes 45 minutes to commute a distance that we do in 20 minutes on the highway here in Cincinnati.

The fallacious logic that causes the uninformed to claim hundreds of millions of dollars in economic benefit from a public improvement is what brought us a billion dollar stadium boondoggle. As though people have a lot of extra money sitting around, and if only there is a stadium or a trolley, they will spend it.

The folks that up scaled their residences along the rail line in Portland and the new employees' residences from employers hiring new people would have done so and happened anyway, just in a different place.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by UKUKUK

Portland, Oregon built a streetcar and attracted billions in investment within a half mile radius of the line.

You're a damn fool if you think it'll be bad for the city. Cleveland is lightyears ahead of Cinci for a good reason.

We need more of you, my friend. Please visit Cincinnati more. Cleveland and Cincinnati are both great, world-class, elite cities and the negative, has-been, yesterday, conservative, do-nothing, scaredy-cat, status-quo, small town, blind, stagnant, boring, vanilla ice cream-loving, city-hating, suburban Applebee's-obsessed 1980s elements in each city are tired, stale and pathetic relics whose time has hopefully come and passed them by. It's way past time for something new.






Embrace different.






And keep Cincinnati weird!

[UKUKUK]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Portland enjoyed a building boom that had nothing to do with its rail other than it was directed to properties along the rail line. There has been endless commentary on this and if you accept that people in Portland would have bought new digs anyway, it was an enormous failure. Subsidy for their rail is as much as $20/trip/person.

Do you really think that people moved to Portland so they could ride the crappy rail? Check their schedule and you will see that it takes 45 minutes to commute a distance that we do in 20 minutes on the highway here in Cincinnati.

The fallacious logic that causes the uninformed to claim hundreds of millions of dollars in economic benefit from a public improvement is what brought us a billion dollar stadium boondoggle. As though people have a lot of extra money sitting around, and if only there is a stadium or a trolley, they will spend it.

The folks that up scaled their residences along the rail line in Portland and the new employees' residences from employers hiring new people would have done so and happened anyway, just in a different place.

I know 3 kids from Minneapolis who are moving to Portland for school. Their comprehensive public trans was a deciding factor. You can't make it in Cincinnati without a car.

I'm not gonna comment on the stadium, but transit oriented development has been PROVEN. 55% of Portland's development since building their streetcar (not rail, their rail was a low quality design but still led to improvements that paid for themselves by creating massive increases in property tax revenues).

The subsidies to keep OTR afloat are greater now than they would be after the streetcar. Y'know why? Property taxes from a crumbling $5000 shell of a home are not much. When you've got a neighborhood entirely revitalized thanks to TOD like what worked in CLEVELAND... well... they're actually making money from the taxes paid along the new Healthline corridor.

20 minutes on the highway... The key is to help ease dependence on fuel (the oil industry is heavily subsidized at several dollars per person thanks to the federal government, so even car-free people like I would LIKE to be have to pay for YOU... it works both ways) and draw people with money back into the inner city.

Thanks to the Euclid Corridor (BRT which is less effective than streetcars and has a similar operating cost), Cleveland State is an attractive option, there are high rise apartments springing up left and right, crime is down, property valuations are up, unemployment in these areas is almost nonexistant aside from the worst of the east side which is still improving on a monthly basis.

If you honestly believe TOD doesn't work and are going to block Cincinnati from growing downtown then I'll see you in Cleveland which is kicking Cinci's ass left and right in terms of development with over 6.8 BILLION in private investment, much of it situated around their very successful transit corridor.

Cleveland is proof that public trans works better in Ohio than most places and that IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/cleve...ssions-63.html



To think, if Cincinnati were as walkable as Cleveland and not a traffic gridlocked city with crumbling road infrastructure (heavily subsidized with no continuous development impact like most fixed-route public transportation routes have) then I would likely be more than happy to stop on I71/75 because the city might be slightly competitive with the "Mistake on the Lake" that I visit so frequently.

[Crew Chief]

Originally Posted by UKUKUK

I know 3 kids from Minneapolis who are moving to Portland for school. Their comprehensive public trans was a deciding factor. You can't make it in Cincinnati without a car.

I'll bet they'll have a different outlook once they get jobs that pay good money and they're paying LOTS of taxes...

[kjbrill]

This thread is turning out like the past others in this forum on the same subject. Just reiteration after reiteration of the same tired arguments from each side with no changes. The issue is back on the ballot again, let's see where it goes from there. If the language is too restrictive why worry, it is only a City ordinance, nothing more, and easily overturned.

[UKUKUK]

Originally Posted by Crew Chief

I'll bet they'll have a different outlook once they get jobs that pay good money and they're paying LOTS of taxes...

Most people in my generation aren't looking for 6 figure incomes after taxes. We know that won't happen thanks to the greedy anti-tax lobby that is pushing through today and doing SUCH good for everyone. All those tax cuts sure created a lot of jobs and provided equity for everyone. YEP!

On that note, I'd rather pay high taxes in a place with amenities than live in a backwards city full of conservative nitwits who are stuck in 1890 and a bunch of congested freeways with no desirable real estate along them.

Ever wonder WHY developers build up around public trans corridors so much? Because the generation of up and coming college grads demand it. It's the market's demand, Mr. Exclusive Capitalist.

[Wilson513]

There is a childlike innocence to those who think that taking more money out of the peoples hands and putting it in the hands of politicians will result in an economic benefit. Where does this come from? Urban planning courses in our liberal universities? Propaganda by these statists? It is certainly a mystery. Less than half the people in this country pay any income taxes at all. So in some sense, if the goal is redistribution, then I suppose that taking from the productive citizens and providing amenities or refundable credits to those who cannot muster enough self worth to be productive accomplishes that.

Europe has learned that it does not work and is struggling with an unsolvable problem. Do we want to model after them? I don't. I'm guessing that those who want the toy trolley aren't really paying any taxes at all. Slackers and takers for whom an expensive toy paid for with others peoples money sounds like a good idea.