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I agree that the Bible does not teach creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing. Rather, God used pre-existing material/energy to create the universe or however many universes there may be. However, I do not believe that the human spirit was co-eternal with God but instead, each person's human spirit is created when that person is born. But . . .who really knows or can know?
Depends on which Bible you're referring to.
2 Maccabees 7:28 "I beseech thee, my son, look upon heaven and earth, and all that is in them: and consider that God made them out of nothing..."
I agree that the Bible does not teach creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing. Rather, God used pre-existing material/energy to create the universe or however many universes there may be. However, I do not believe that the human spirit was co-eternal with God but instead, each person's human spirit is created when that person is born. But . . .who really knows or can know?
So how did the material get here when he spoke "In the beginning"?
I agree that the Bible does not teach creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing. Rather, God used pre-existing material/energy to create the universe or however many universes there may be. However, I do not believe that the human spirit was co-eternal with God but instead, each person's human spirit is created when that person is born. But . . .who really knows or can know?
On the human spirit creation I’m in between the 2 positions, I more agree with what Katzpur is saying about our human spirit being co-eternal with God but lean more toward it coming from God through the word - and our soul is where development happens
I think there is a pre-existence of our spirit but not in a fully formed state prior to our physical birth/incarnation but our spirit is rational energy/spirit from God (the senses are from the earth/earthly)
It is more like spiritual matter/energy and it is our consciousness which is called ‘light’
I think this is what is being referred to in John 1 and also in Genesis 1
But I think we need to go to the Greek philosophical writers for their work on these matters which is what the church fathers/doctors/saints were doing and also those of the enlightenment period which preceded the reformation
In Revelation we see books being opened, and the book of life being opened- that is not meant in the literal sense, it is more about us being open to understanding the meaning contained within them
The ‘works’ are literary in nature that the ‘dead’ were keeping in the ‘tombs’ of the ‘fathers’
The ‘fathers’ being religious heads Like Calvin, Luther,
Rev 20:12**And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13**And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14**And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15**And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I agree that the Bible does not teach creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing. Rather, God used pre-existing material/energy to create the universe or however many universes there may be. However, I do not believe that the human spirit was co-eternal with God but instead, each person's human spirit is created when that person is born. But . . .who really knows or can know?
Minor clarification: We don't believe human spirits are co-eternal with God, but that the highly refined matter (we use the word "intelligences", loosely translated as the light of truth) from which God created our spirits is co-eternal with God. I know that's still different from the mainstream Christian belief that our spirits are created when we are born. I think I'd like to talk about this a little more. Maybe I'll start a new thread on the subject of the pre-mortal existence of man. (I'll likely be the only one participating with my point of view, but that's okay.)
Minor clarification: We don't believe human spirits are co-eternal with God, but that the highly refined matter (we use the word "intelligences") from which God created our spirits is co-eternal with God. I know that's still different from the mainstream Christian belief that our spirits are created when we are born. I think I'd like to talk about this a little more. Maybe I'll start a new thread on the subject of the pre-mortal existence of man. (I'll likely be the only one participating with my point of view, but that's okay.)
Yes, I agree and yes I would like to see a thread on that
2 Maccabees 7:28 "I beseech thee, my son, look upon heaven and earth, and all that is in them: and consider that God made them out of nothing..."
The ancient Hebrews had different beliefs about things and did not always agree on things.
In the Hebrew Bible, the word - bara - often claimed to refer to creation out of nothing, is used in Genesis 1:27 to refer to the creation of man. But according to the Genesis creation account man was created out of existing materials; the dust of the earth. Of course the Genesis creation account is not literal since man evolved, he wasn't created out of clay and placed in a garden.
The point is that the word 'bara' does not inherently mean creation out of nothing and so it cannot be claimed that the Bible teaches creation out of nothing.
The ancient Hebrews had different beliefs about things and did not always agree on things.
In the Hebrew Bible, the word - bara - often claimed to refer to creation out of nothing, is used in Genesis 1:27 to refer to the creation of man. But according to the Genesis creation account man was created out of existing materials; the dust of the earth. Of course the Genesis creation account is not literal since man evolved, he wasn't created out of clay and placed in a garden.
The point is that the word 'bara' does not inherently mean creation out of nothing and so it cannot be claimed that the Bible teaches creation out of nothing.
Minor clarification: We don't believe human spirits are co-eternal with God, but that the highly refined matter (we use the word "intelligences", loosely translated as truth and light) from which God created our spirits is co-eternal with God. I know that's still different from the mainstream Christian belief that our spirits are created when we are born. I think I'd like to talk about this a little more. Maybe I'll start a new thread on the subject of the pre-mortal existence of man. (I'll likely be the only one participating with my point of view, but that's okay.)
I misunderstood you Katz. I reread what you wrote and understood it this time.
Starting a new thread on the subject sounds like a good idea.
It doesn't matter what language 2 Maccabees was written in. The Hebrew Bible does not have to be understood as teaching creation out of nothing. And 2 Maccabees is not part of the Hebrew canon.
2 Maccabees 7:28 "I beseech thee, my son, look upon heaven and earth, and all that is in them: and consider that God made them out of nothing..."
In our consciousness we routinely create out of nothing using our imaginations. Such creations comprise a major part of our entertainment milieu. It is not remotely surprising that God would create out of nothing in His consciousness!
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