Are there still Spaniards in New Mexico? (Santa Fe, Aztec: sales, renting)
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I have a close relative who owned and lived in Black Forest for several years. They almost lost their house in the big fire (got lucky). I checked out the area about 3-4 years ago when I was passing through. The area is nothing special, especially now that zillions of tract homes have been built just north of there a few miles. All kinds of big shopping centers and other amenities too. The once rural area is ruined. And yes, there is no comparison with Taos.
As for jobs, people in NM are still working for $7.50/hr or whatever the minimum wage is now. So they're supposed to commute several miles to and from a job where they make a pithy amount that supports not even one person?
When I lived in the area (NM), the rents were not "affordable." It still requires 2 people to make rent on a pithy salary. Then they have to have childcare if they are parents. As you know it's a small rural area, there are very few high paying jobs.
We all know that if developers had a good monetary reason to build myriad homes and develop Taos, they would. They would have done it ages ago, in fact. Fortunately there are laws in place to keep ticky-tack from being thrown up. At least there is some semblance of sanity but it's still eroding.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check out Questa sometime. Which was the town in Taos County that ran out of water a few years ago, and had to have bottled water delivered? That sounds very concerning. I was surprised it happened in Taos County, because Taos always seems to have plenty of water running through it. I assumed the mountain had springs and streams. Has anyone done a hydrology study of it?
There used to be more consumers. The level of tourism from Europe fell way off in Santa Fe (as it did in the whole US) after 9/11, when suddenly it became more difficult to visit the US, even for First Worlders from Europe. And it's never recovered since then; not to 1990's levels. The crowds at Indian Market are smaller than before, too. Also, the US economy isn't doing that great in terms of consumer purchasing power. People have less disposable income than before the Great Recession, not to mention Covid. Real estate and rents are through the roof due to land and rental-complex grabs by Real Estate Investment Trusts, which leaves people struggling to keep a roof over their head. Upward mobility is hampered by skyrocketing college tuition.
All of that and more result in slumped economies in tourist towns and towns dependent to a significant degree on art sales. The middle class no longer has the discretionary income to spend on art, even to do lay-away payments. 30 years ago, Taos residents were saying, that the town eventually will become town of cheap tourist trinket and t-shirt shops. That prediction was visibly coming true in the mid-to-late 2010's already. Santa Fe's next in line.
For your optimism to pan out, the US would need to get its economic house in order. Santa Fe and Taos (etc.) don't exist in a vacuum, a magic bubble.
A lot of the 'townships' here have little or no public water. The other side of the Rio Grande is a lot of truck in only water. There's water galore in the county, if any place ran out, it was because they had a horrible or nonexistent distribution network, not because the area ran out of total supply.
Very interesting about the European visitors! I would not have guessed that, especially cause this area is kind of the middle of nowhere.
The thing that will replace art as a driver is outdoor recreation. The amount of money people spend on that has grown enormously since 2000. It's just much more a part of peoples lives than it used to be, people are more outdoorsy - at least for rec instead of work - than they used to be.
If I had to guess, art will more and more move to small adjoining towns like Chimayo while the centers will be more restaurants, venues, and businesses.
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Originally Posted by aries63
There is no comparison between Taos and Black Forest, which has no history or unique culture and way of life worth preserving. It sounds like you think it's a good solution for Taoseños to be pushed out of Taos into places with no services, so WFH-ers and retirees can have the town to themselves. That comes across very patronizing, although it seems like you know better.
Thank God Taos is no Aspen or other insipid Colorado ski town.
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Originally Posted by pathrunner
I have a close relative who owned and lived in Black Forest for several years. They almost lost their house in the big fire (got lucky). I checked out the area about 3-4 years ago when I was passing through. The area is nothing special, especially now that zillions of tract homes have been built just north of there a few miles. All kinds of big shopping centers and other amenities too. The once rural area is ruined. And yes, there is no comparison with Taos.
As for jobs, people in NM are still working for $7.50/hr or whatever the minimum wage is now. So they're supposed to commute several miles to and from a job where they make a pithy amount that supports not even one person?
When I lived in the area (NM), the rents were not "affordable." It still requires 2 people to make rent on a pithy salary. Then they have to have childcare if they are parents. As you know it's a small rural area, there are very few high paying jobs.
We all know that if developers had a good monetary reason to build myriad homes and develop Taos, they would. They would have done it ages ago, in fact. Fortunately there are laws in place to keep ticky-tack from being thrown up. At least there is some semblance of sanity but it's still eroding.
These areas are 100% comparable, both places are places where people grew up that have changed, like basically every other city in America. That's what matters, not whether adobe is cuter than gypsum siding. Black Forest is full of prayer trees pointed towards Pikes Peak - just because they didn't build a pueblo doesn't mean the area wasn't sacred to the Utes / Plains Indians as well.
Keeping the town frozen in some artificial box to keep it "cute" is quite weird. Cities can keep their history and have houses and stores, it's not mutually exclusive - look at Santa Fe. There's enough room for all of us, all that's needed is some extra homes to solve the housing cost. There's a reason they haven't been throwing up a lot of houses, the county hasn't grown in population much in the last 2 decades - that's why. I'm not supportive of all growth, I don't support the airport expansion - I'm in favor of adding permanent residents and keeping tourism to simply moderate levels.
Keep in mind housing has gone up 57% since the pandemic, while rates have more than doubled. Taos is literally no different than anywhere else in the nation, prices are high cause it's a desirable area, but by no means way out of wack like other ski towns. To Ruth's point, this is a national issue, not a local one.
The flip side of this is wage compression is happening right now, bottom earners are seeing big wage increases and top earners are stagnating. We've reversed a decent amount of the income inequality in the US in the last 2 years. No one is making $7.50 here, it's double, $15 minimum.
On top of that, there's the local informal market and the Zillow market. Most locals or long term residents have some sort of special locked in rent price that's well below the "market" rate. People have made that pretty explicit, there's 2 prices for a lot of things, the out of town and the local price. Things are not bad for the locals.
I can guarantee you that just over the mountain in Mora they are making 7.50 an hour maybe 8.50 and maybe in some places 10. Same with L.V.
It seems as though you're talking out sides of your mouth, maybe it's just that you're trying to present a balanced view but it seems like you haven't made up your mind about which side you're on. Black Forest may have some interesting history but it does not compare to the Pueblo and general area of Taos and the surrounding area.
I absolutely do not believe there are any affordable rents in Taos. And when you say that things aren't bad for the locals that's all relative depending upon what we're talking about.
Last edited by pathrunner; 09-10-2023 at 07:19 AM..
I can guarantee you that just over the mountain in Mora they are making 7.50 an hour maybe 8.50 and maybe in some places 10. Same with L.V.
It seems as though you're talking out sides of your mouth, maybe it's just that you're trying to present a balanced view but it seems like you haven't made up your mind about which side you're on. Black Forest may have some interesting history but it does not compare to the Pueblo and general area of Taos and the surrounding area.
I absolutely do not believe there are any affordable rents in Taos. And when you say that things aren't bad for the locals that's all relative depending upon what we're talking about.
The also have home prices about 2/3 to half the national average of 410K in LV and Mora, according to the pretty spotty data I got from a quick google search.
I just saw a girl I was dating for a bit Venmo her landlord $750 rent for a studio literally 200 feet from the plaza center, she moved in last Sept. Not luxury but livable inside and prime location. I walked into a bar near Seco and they got to the subject of rent. They asked what I pay, and you should have seen their mouths drop when I said $2000 (really $2100). One guy said "I've got two trailers I'm renting out for $500 a piece". That made my mouth drop lol... Don't know what your definition of affordable is, but that fits mine - especially considering me and some co workers were paying $1900 for a poorly new built 1 bedroom apartment way out in Suwanee GA (that was $1500 when I first signed up in 2021, if you want to see inflation - 400 a month increase in 2.5 years). It's basically $1400 minimum for a 1 bedroom not very nice apartment anywhere in the US now.
Here's what I want: I want to see the area grow at a steady healthy clip of say 15-20% population increase per decade for the county, spread out across all the different townships, with enough houses so locals can stay and new residents can come in. The area has tons of water, great air, great rec, great culture, buildable land, disaster free... That's better than most of the rest of the US, and more people should enjoy it. It's some weird aberration of our times that there's 4-5 million people from COS to Greeley and 50,000 from the San Luis Valley down to Taos. This is way better than Greeley, this is where people should be living. All while tourism stays at about where it is and the rate of 2nd home ownership drops. Basically hope the Texans just decide to move in rather than do a 1 week / 1 month getaway. Dallas sucks.
I don't want to see the area grow. That would be a mistake. It would turn into Santa Fe, which got ruined 20 years ago. Santa Fe is now a snarl of cars and traffic. At least they've created strict guidelines about how houses can be built and how they look on the outside.
What I want to see is improvement in how people are able to make a living. A livable wage, because I guarantee you that for one person, $15/hr. is not enough. I can't believe that you think it is. The only advantage is that it forces most people to partner up and help each other out with housing and other expenses.
There is a LOT of poverty in the area, and that's been going on for decades. There's a drug problem too (Espanola and other places).
I don't want to rent a 200 sq ft "apartment" for $750 a month. That's the size of a storage unit.
As to the original question: there will always be Spaniards in New Mexico. They are descendants. They are proud of their heritage. One bad apply or apples does not tarnigh their culture and their legacy. Many of them are interbred with Indians (I don't know what to call it, some people prefer Native American) so how are they supposed to take sides or choose?
As for jobs, people in NM are still working for $7.50/hr or whatever the minimum wage is now. So they're supposed to commute several miles to and from a job where they make a pithy amount that supports not even one person?
When I lived in the area (NM), the rents were not "affordable." It still requires 2 people to make rent on a pithy salary. Then they have to have childcare if they are parents. As you know it's a small rural area, there are very few high paying jobs.
We all know that if developers had a good monetary reason to build myriad homes and develop Taos, they would. They would have done it ages ago, in fact. Fortunately there are laws in place to keep ticky-tack from being thrown up. At least there is some semblance of sanity but it's still eroding.
Santa Fe adopted a minimum wage of $10/hr. around 10 years ago, and now I think it's up to $14/hr. This is helpful for people who live in lower-rent towns and villages outside the city, and commute in for the better pay. However, that requires that the workers all have their own transportation, so for those that don't, it's not a savings if you have to buy a beater car, pay insurance, etc etc just to access a higher wage. For those who already have a car, it only means paying for higher gas consumption.
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I don't want to see the area grow. That would be a mistake. It would turn into Santa Fe, which got ruined 20 years ago. Santa Fe is now a snarl of cars and traffic. At least they've created strict guidelines about how houses can be built and how they look on the outside.
Santa Fe traffic got de-snarled by Covid, and I'm happy to report, it remains blissfully so. With less-crowded streets, driving behavior has changed completely; no more crowding, tailgating, aggressive lane-changing. Drivers are more relaxed, and driving around town is actually pleasant, now! Not only pleasant, but much safer! Cerrillos Road is no longer a nightmare, and Rodeo Road has calmed down and thinned out significantly. Ditto St. Francis Drive. This needs to be experienced to be believed.
Considering the increase in density in the last 10 years, I'm not sure how it's possible that traffic is much better, but there must still be a lot of people who are working from home. No more mid-day rush hour for the workers who liked to lunch at home, then rush back to the office. Not much of a morning or evening rush hour, either, except for the service workers who live out of town and commute in.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 09-11-2023 at 10:02 AM..
It's fortunate that Santa Fe remains de-snarled. Last time I was there was early 2020 at the beginning of the pandemic. I noticed about 12-18 months ago that Huntsville had become busier and more aggressive. Lots more cars on the road. It isn't terrible, but I have to admit that fewer cars during 2021 was really welcome.
Very interesting about the European visitors! I would not have guessed that, especially cause this area is kind of the middle of nowhere.
The thing that will replace art as a driver is outdoor recreation. The amount of money people spend on that has grown enormously since 2000. It's just much more a part of peoples lives than it used to be, people are more outdoorsy - at least for rec instead of work - than they used to be. .
Indian Market used to bring in the Europeans in droves. Gotta check out the "real Indians", you know! Plus Santa Fe is still somewhat of a resort town with high-end exotic shopping, so that, too, was a draw for the moneyed classes from Europe. And the pueblo-style architecture was exotic for Europeans, too. I used to hear German and the Scandinavian languages around town during that ceremonial period bracketing Indian Market. I don't recall hearing French. But that's rare nowadays.
As to outdoor recreation replacing art, I don't see it for Santa Fe. Maybe for Taos. The Santa Fe area already has archaeological sites like the Puye cliff dwellings and Bandelier, for people who are into that. And the high-end spa scene in town with the fancy shopping around the Plaza still attracts wealthy tourists from around the US. I don't envision that Santa Fe has much to offer, outdoor-recreation-wise, except winter skiing. Summers are too warm for much outdoor activity, though locals do hike in the mountains outside of town.
Taos has the rafting companies in the gorge, and there's probably good hiking all over the area. Maybe if some of the pueblos were to open camping sites, they could benefit from some tourism, but that can be a double-edged sword; I'm sure some wouldn't want to expose themselves to that, and potential accompanying issues.There's also the high risk of fires, leading the state and national parks to close for summer and fall camping.
Good post and ideas, but if it were going to happen it would have happened already. Just don't see it happening. Not even in Taos. Where really is the winter skiing except Angel Fire and a little bit Taos Ski Valley? Sipapu has had a really tough time in recent years, it's not really viable as a profitable ski resort. They do get some tourists renting the local cabins.
These areas are 100% comparable, both places are places where people grew up that have changed, like basically every other city in America. That's what matters, not whether adobe is cuter than gypsum siding. Black Forest is full of prayer trees pointed towards Pikes Peak - just because they didn't build a pueblo doesn't mean the area wasn't sacred to the Utes / Plains Indians as well.
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Not even close. Taos Pueblo is a UNESCO World Heritage site, one of the oldest continually-inhabited communities in the US, there is nothing that compares to it in Colorado. It's either disingenuous or clueless to suggest otherwise. There is nothing sacred about a white suburb of Colorado Springs. All the land is sacred to the original inhabitants, but Taos is unique and you fail to recognize it. Not just the Pueblo land, but the historic Spanish, Mexican, and Territorial history, and later the Taos Society of Artists are all part of what makes Taos worthy of protection from wanton development. Nothing like this ever existed in Black Forest, which has zero architectural, artistic, or literary interest. There's a reason I've never heard of it before.
This is what disturbs me about the WFH movement. People move into an area they don't understand, and are isolated from the local residents because they don't have to work with them, and so see them as an inconvenience to the building of their Starbucks, or whatever it is they want to bring with them. To suggest Texans move in and overwhelm the locals is an idea that would horrify almost anyone else.
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Not only pleasant, but much safer! Cerrillos Road is no longer a nightmare, and Rodeo Road has calmed down and thinned out significantly. Ditto St. Francis Drive. This needs to be experienced to be believed. 
