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Thanks for clarifying. I agree about the comparison of the Southwest and the Southeast, especially since I've lived in the Southeast for 3 years now, and am pretty familiar with the culture. I live outside Huntsville, which is semi-rural and quite different from Huntsville. It's been nice (life-saving actually) to have both.
What commune was that in Taos? I was connected to, but never lived at Lama. Back in the 1970's. Visited in the 90's right before the big fire. Lama was very different back in the day. Much larger and no outside events, mostly Sufism and Joe Miller. Later it had a masjid (mosque) via Steve Durkee one of the original founders, but I don't know if it is still there. I don't think so. Off topic, I ran into Ram Dass at the beautiful A-frame outhouse that overlooked the entire Rio Grande valley. It was awesome, but for some reason they took it down. I heard people used to sneak over to Questa for an occasional hamburger, lol.
About Taos being overrun, I meant that it's become so large and commercial, but that's to be expected. I loved with Santa Fe and Taos were dusty little quaint arts towns. To me, I'm an oldster so of course the fond memories make it seem better then than now.
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"Large and commercial" is very relative in NM. Taos still seems small to be, compared to Santa Fe. I started visiting in 1991. I haven't noticed that it's changed, except that some of the higher-end galleries have closed, while others have moved off the high-rent main drag to side streets. Some of the gallery owners and operators decamped to Santa Fe, which although its economy has been eroding, still brings in enough tourists and art collectors apparently, to keep the Taos transplants going. IDK. I ran into some mighty desperate Santa Fe gallery owners before Covid. Some of them have shut down at this point. Empty storefronts around the Plaza.
I don't know how much longer Santa Fe can keep itself going on the strength of its former reputation as a fine art and spa town: a more affordable and casual version of Telluride and Aspen.
Sikhs, in Taos? They're long gone. They must have folded into the Sikh community outside Espanola.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 09-07-2023 at 07:25 AM..
I should have phrased it better, I don't mean running a bunch of people off, obviously. What I'm talking about is the dominance that the old Spanish aristocracy has in the cultural and political sphere. There's a lot of wounds from that.
It's pretty analogous to the antebellum South in many ways. Yeah the Confederacy was part of history, in fact you could say that's what forged the identity of the area, but is that something to be celebrated? Is a statue to Juan de Oñate much different than a statue to Stonewall Jackson? Most people would say the antebellum way of life should be relegated to history.
In many ways both the Southeast and the Southwest have to recognize what the past was and keep the history alive, but not live and perpetuate the past - THAT is what I'm talking about. There will always be the Spanish element in the ingredient mix of New Mexico, it will just be reborn into a more wholesome version than what was in 1940.
Haha I would be a middle class gringo. Remote work. Yeah Taos has been commercialized (though not nearly to the extent of any other ski area town in the west), but there's 5 Questas or Tierra Amarillas in New Mexico for every 1 Taos. And Taos County really hasn't grown, so how did it get overrun? If you want quaint, there's always quaint to be had. IDK, my landlord grew up on a hippie commune in Taos. She doesn't live like a hippie now lol, obviously she thought there was a better way. There's none of them left except Lama. Was that Taos really the better version than the one we have today? Sounds like it was a pretty wild rough place back in the 60s - 70s.
Pressure from the Native community is taking care of some of that. The Conquista re-enactments are no longer happening. And the statue in Albuquerque of Juan de Onate, who was banished from NM by the Spanish crown for crimes against humanity, has been taken down, and remains down and stored away. A statue of a similar figure in Santa Fe's plaza was removed by the city admin, as I recall.
"Large and commercial" is very relative in NM. Taos still seems small to be, compared to Santa Fe. I started visiting in 1991. I haven't noticed that it's changed, except that some of the higher-end galleries have closed, while others have moved off the high-rent main drag to side streets. Some of the gallery owners and operators decamped to Santa Fe, which although its economy has been eroding, still brings in enough tourists and art collectors apparently, to keep the Taos transplants going. IDK. I ran into some mighty desperate Santa Fe gallery owners before Covid. Some of them have shut down at this point. Empty storefronts around the Plaza.
I don't know how much longer Santa Fe can keep itself going on the strength of its former reputation as a fine art and spa town: a more affordable and casual version of Telluride and Aspen.
Sikhs, in Taos? They're long gone. They must have folded into the Sikh community outside Espanola.
Sufis, not Sikhs.
Maybe towels doesn't change that much since 1991 or the '90s in general but I was referring to the Taos. of the 70's.
I read that the statue that was taken down was moved to the museum I don't know whether it's outdoors or inside but do you know if that is true?
Maybe towels doesn't change that much since 1991 or the '90s in general but I was referring to the Taos. of the 70's.
I read that the statue that was taken down was moved to the museum I don't know whether it's outdoors or inside but do you know if that is true?
Ah. Sufis. Thank you. Didn't know there were or had been Sufis in Taos.
At last report (2020), the statue was temporarily placed outside the ABQ museum, "awaiting further decisions" by city authorities. I haven't tracked the issue beyond that, and didn't find any updates just now.
Not really in Taos, though some lived there at one time. Mostly up at Lama, since Sufi teachers would visit and teach there.
To me, some people want that statue on view by placing it outside, which it shouldn't be. Put it inside a museum. It's like they are almost showing the finger to people who want it removed. Why do we revere these barbarians instead of honoring those who contribute positively to society.
Was that Taos really the better version than the one we have today? Sounds like it was a pretty wild rough place back in the 60s - 70s.
At least the locals could still afford to live in Taos then. Many have been "run off" due to the economic pressures of Anglos moving in. And that's the basis of much of the resentment you find towards outsiders in northern NM. What you see as "improvement" is from your own cultural perspective, and not to the people you are trying to "improve."
Not just the Pueblos, but also the Spanish-speaking people of New Mexico had their culture and language beaten out of them by Anglo missionaries and schoolteachers, trying to "improve" and assimilate them. That left deep scars.
At least the locals could still afford to live in Taos then. Many have been "run off" due to the economic pressures of Anglos moving in. And that's the basis of much of the resentment you find towards outsiders in northern NM. What you see as "improvement" is from your own cultural perspective, and not to the people you are trying to "improve."
Not just the Pueblos, but also the Spanish-speaking people of New Mexico had their culture and language beaten out of them by Anglo missionaries and schoolteachers, trying to "improve" and assimilate them. That left deep scars.
Not only that, there was sexual abuse or attempting sexual abuse in the area (near it: Mora County directly over the mountain from Taos) in the Catholic church. Some of it was successfully prosecuted or dealt with but it happened to many children and added to the already deep scars of language and culture attacks. My understanding is that the children whose parents speak Spanish no longer are abused at school and forced to speak only English (thankfully). But the abuse is very recent, as in it happened to people who are in their 60's. Not only that, penitentes are also very recent, though the meeting houses no longer exist and the practice has likely, hopefully, died out. All of that adds to the trauma of having the culture seriously damaged or destroyed. Every effort should be made to preserve the Pueblos and the culture and history.
And thanks for clarifying the issue with Taos. The commercialization is what I don't like. The slickness, the arrogance, the show of wealth, the lack of affordable decent housing... all of it ruins the atmosphere and the magic and charm of this unique place.
Thanks for clarifying. I agree about the comparison of the Southwest and the Southeast, especially since I've lived in the Southeast for 3 years now, and am pretty familiar with the culture. I live outside Huntsville, which is semi-rural and quite different from Huntsville. It's been nice (life-saving actually) to have both.
What commune was that in Taos? I was connected to, but never lived at Lama. Back in the 1970's. Visited in the 90's right before the big fire. Lama was very different back in the day. Much larger and no outside events, mostly Sufism and Joe Miller. Later it had a masjid (mosque) via Steve Durkee one of the original founders, but I don't know if it is still there. I don't think so. Off topic, I ran into Ram Dass at the beautiful A-frame outhouse that overlooked the entire Rio Grande valley. It was awesome, but for some reason they took it down. I heard people used to sneak over to Questa for an occasional hamburger, lol.
About Taos being overrun, I meant that it's become so large and commercial, but that's to be expected. I loved with Santa Fe and Taos were dusty little quaint arts towns. To me, I'm an oldster so of course the fond memories make it seem better then than now.
The Confederacy is definitely not something to be celebrated. A few years ago a native tried to convince me that the Confederate flag is "historical" and nothing else. Sure, Jan. Not a chance. I seriously doubt that the Southeast will ever let go of the past. It is very much present in the consciousness of a majority of the populace. Last week I was in Huntsville, a progressive melting pot compared to its surroundings and the entire state. A weird guy in a truck had a confederate flag made up into a fist with a middle finger sticking up. He was heading south, likely south of the Tennessee River, not that everyone down there thinks like that. Saw an even more horrible specimen in the town I live in (a friend caught a photo). Really sick negativity. As they say, you see one, it's representative of more that's unrevealed. It's impolite here to bring up in public conversation one's racism, bigotry and other intolerance, but it really does still exist and it isn't going away. That's being realistic, not cynical.
New Mexico has a way of embracing those who respect our history, and quickly dismissing those who impose their own sense of place on our lands. People who met and worked with Native American communities or took up residence at compounds owned by generations of Hispanic families were the most likely to stay. These individuals and their experiences are the core of the current exhibit. As the curators, Jack Loeffler and I felt it was most important to let the voices of those who lived the local counterculture speak for themselves. Visitors encounter 45 unique personalities in audio excerpts from oral histories conducted over the last two years and pulled from the Loeffler collection, which spans nearly 40 years of recording in the Southwest. The stories span geographies and themes, and are accompanied by documentary photography, ephemera, and cultural material. Each story evokes the flavor of the era and the intimate nature of first-person experiences.
Back then the misguided and idiotic idea of "cultural appropriation" wasn't a thing. People just worked together.
Exactly. There can be these sort of reactionary undertones from people who feel like they've 'demoted' by not being the top of the pyramid anymore when the playing field levels, and they want to harken back to some past, oftentimes highly embellished and glossed over. But in general there's a lot of progress. I actually struggled to find anyone who had those type of Confederate views in Atlanta area and the surrounding small towns, where it seemed further along the path of discovering what the new south would be - still polished and charming, but welcoming instead of exclusive. It takes time to heal though.
She was born on Morningstar, which apparently is only a couple miles from Seco where we both live. The only thing she mentioned to me was there was no running water and people didn't wear clothes in the summer - and they moved out when she was really young. That one, along with the rest, have disbanded - and it's weird because there's not really a recorded history of them, there's not really many books, none of them have marked locations of where they were (people just give vague areas), there's no public record of what happened during this phase. It's like a period that came and vanished. The thing I'd like to know is why? It's especially relevant today with so many people saying we need to completely change society, and here we had 30 different communities did exactly that, but they fell apart.
What a lot of people allude to is sexual drama. Lama avoided it by not having a centralized authority figure. What it is now is a place that goes into hermit self sufficient mode from Oct - May and is open to the public, though not advertised, from June - Sept, when there's a lot more people there. They're really friendly, they do Sufi dance and chanting on Thursdays and Shabbat on Fridays. I've been to one of each - both enlightening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
"Large and commercial" is very relative in NM. Taos still seems small to be, compared to Santa Fe. I started visiting in 1991. I haven't noticed that it's changed, except that some of the higher-end galleries have closed, while others have moved off the high-rent main drag to side streets. Some of the gallery owners and operators decamped to Santa Fe, which although its economy has been eroding, still brings in enough tourists and art collectors apparently, to keep the Taos transplants going. IDK. I ran into some mighty desperate Santa Fe gallery owners before Covid. Some of them have shut down at this point. Empty storefronts around the Plaza.
I don't know how much longer Santa Fe can keep itself going on the strength of its former reputation as a fine art and spa town: a more affordable and casual version of Telluride and Aspen.
Sikhs, in Taos? They're long gone. They must have folded into the Sikh community outside Espanola.
Yes, it's relative. From what locals have said, the signs have changed on shops, but the area isn't significantly bigger or different than what it was 30 years ago. Compared to the CO mountain towns, Taos is still modest. And there's Red River for down to earth if you want that, there's options at every price range. Even Santa Fe - though pricey, didn't feel overly catering to the "global elite", and the artwork is top notch - I wouldn't make ceramics with that level of detail for less than $1500 either .
Both towns have had the number of galleries go down, but they were at levels that were no way sustainable - there's just not enough purchasers to producers.
I've bought most of my stuff in Questa though, cause it is the quaint artsy town and the prices are better! That town needs a little shot in the arm.
I'm optimistic about the future - I think the entire Northern Rio Grande and San Luis Valley is an area where remote workers and retirees will come in and keep things flowing; and that's a more permanent and less seasonal arrangement than the dependency on visitors. I just hope it's spread out and not centralized to a few have zones while the have nots slowly revert to pinon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63
At least the locals could still afford to live in Taos then. Many have been "run off" due to the economic pressures of Anglos moving in. And that's the basis of much of the resentment you find towards outsiders in northern NM. What you see as "improvement" is from your own cultural perspective, and not to the people you are trying to "improve."
Not just the Pueblos, but also the Spanish-speaking people of New Mexico had their culture and language beaten out of them by Anglo missionaries and schoolteachers, trying to "improve" and assimilate them. That left deep scars.
Yeah, though the nature of the beast is things grow or fade away - hardly anything stays "as is" for decades. As much as people don't like growth, the other direction is worse. My own hometown of Black Forest CO went from middle class exurb to $1,000,000 and up homes within 25 years. But I'm not going to go out and demand the place revert, it just is what it is...
It'd be more of an issue if it was the entire Northern NM area that was priced out. It's not. It's literally a 15 mile radius around Taos - go anywhere else in the county and it's still really affordable, though there's only 1 restaurant choice. There's whole cohorts of off gridders building their own homes, 0 mortgage. The county's unzoned, there's options if people want it. Wages are high too for service / construction work. The ski valley employees (800 of them) seem to enjoy the set up.
The problem with the complainers is they offer no solution. The solution to high home prices is build more homes, especially those 2 bedroom condo things, but they will be the first to shoot that down too. People refer to them as CAVE people - Citizens Against Virtually Everything.
People at the Pueblo have a good take, they've told me, "What person is a native? No one" The earth is the mother of us all, we're all just passers through, it's our responsibility to respect the environment, upbringing, and the people around us to live in harmony.
The assimilation was a real issue, though thankfully people are happy to explore differences now.
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Originally Posted by pathrunner
And thanks for clarifying the issue with Taos. The commercialization is what I don't like. The slickness, the arrogance, the show of wealth, the lack of affordable decent housing... all of it ruins the atmosphere and the magic and charm of this unique place.
Even there, they've been very proactive and have been asking the community, what do you want from tourism and growth? So people are being engaged to make sure that what the 2050 area is is what people want.
I've bought most of my stuff in Questa though, cause it is the quaint artsy town and the prices are better! That town needs a little shot in the arm.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check out Questa sometime. Which was the town in Taos County that ran out of water a few years ago, and had to have bottled water delivered? That sounds very concerning. I was surprised it happened in Taos County, because Taos always seems to have plenty of water running through it. I assumed the mountain had springs and streams. Has anyone done a hydrology study of it?
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Both towns have had the number of galleries go down, but they were at levels that were no way sustainable - there's just not enough purchasers to producers.
There used to be more consumers. The level of tourism from Europe fell way off in Santa Fe (as it did in the whole US) after 9/11, when suddenly it became more difficult to visit the US, even for First Worlders from Europe. And it's never recovered since then; not to 1990's levels. The crowds at Indian Market are smaller than before, too. Also, the US economy isn't doing that great in terms of consumer purchasing power. People have less disposable income than before the Great Recession, not to mention Covid. Real estate and rents are through the roof due to land and rental-complex grabs by Real Estate Investment Trusts, which leaves people struggling to keep a roof over their head. Upward mobility is hampered by skyrocketing college tuition.
All of that and more result in slumped economies in tourist towns and towns dependent to a significant degree on art sales. The middle class no longer has the discretionary income to spend on art, even to do lay-away payments. 30 years ago, Taos residents were saying, that the town eventually will become town of cheap tourist trinket and t-shirt shops. That prediction was visibly coming true in the mid-to-late 2010's already. Santa Fe's next in line.
For your optimism to pan out, the US would need to get its economic house in order. Santa Fe and Taos (etc.) don't exist in a vacuum, a magic bubble.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 09-07-2023 at 09:45 PM..
Yeah, though the nature of the beast is things grow or fade away - hardly anything stays "as is" for decades. As much as people don't like growth, the other direction is worse. My own hometown of Black Forest CO went from middle class exurb to $1,000,000 and up homes within 25 years. But I'm not going to go out and demand the place revert, it just is what it is...
It'd be more of an issue if it was the entire Northern NM area that was priced out. It's not. It's literally a 15 mile radius around Taos - go anywhere else in the county and it's still really affordable, though there's only 1 restaurant choice. There's whole cohorts of off gridders building their own homes, 0 mortgage. The county's unzoned, there's options if people want it. Wages are high too for service / construction work. The ski valley employees (800 of them) seem to enjoy the set up.
The problem with the complainers is they offer no solution. The solution to high home prices is build more homes, especially those 2 bedroom condo things, but they will be the first to shoot that down too. People refer to them as CAVE people - Citizens Against Virtually Everything.
There is no comparison between Taos and Black Forest, which has no history or unique culture and way of life worth preserving. It sounds like you think it's a good solution for Taoseños to be pushed out of Taos into places with no services, so WFH-ers and retirees can have the town to themselves. That comes across very patronizing, although it seems like you know better.
Thank God Taos is no Aspen or other insipid Colorado ski town.
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I agree about the comparison of the Southwest and the Southeast, especially since I've lived in the Southeast for 3 years now, and am pretty familiar with the culture. I live outside Huntsville, which is semi-rural and quite different from Huntsville. It's been nice (life-saving actually) to have both. 
