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regarding bold above,
it can just as easily be said, "who cares what atheists say about divinity. They know nothing about it and don't want to know."
You know nothing about divinities, plural. Because divinity is either related to, devoted to, or proceeding from a deity.[1][2] and as there are different concepts about different gods, then there must be different divinities. Your divinity is not that of Christians, and even they can not decide on divinity, whether it is trinitarian or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
what atheists say about god is inconsequential to believers, because it can't get much more "know nothing about it" (god, divinity) than to deny that it even exists. the bold above is certainly a stance that makes perfect sense to an atheist. Therefore it is logical for an atheist to also recognize that the very same stance may of course also be held by theists in the very same way.
Also applies to religious believers who do not accept the many other different religious beliefs to their own. You are saying they are wrong, you do not believe their claims, you do not believe in their gods, therefore according to your 'logic', it can't get much more "know nothing about their beliefs" (their god, their divinity). Because according to your 'logic', we can know nothing about a god despite the religious telling us about their alleged god or gods.
And you can not try the Mystic hand waving and argue they simply have false beliefs about your god, because then you are not only implicitly admitting they have false beliefs, and therefore they too do not understand divinity, but also implying that you somehow know better than them. And that is no better than the Christians who come here and tell us about what their god wants, as if they could somehow know the mind of a god.
It is an arrogant pretense at being better based on having an opinion without any supporting evidence for your claims.
regarding bold above,
it can just as easily be said, "who cares what atheists say about divinity. They know nothing about it and don't want to know."
what atheists say about god is inconsequential to believers, because it can't get much more "know nothing about it" (god, divinity) than to deny that it even exists. the bold above is certainly a stance that makes perfect sense to an atheist. Therefore it is logical for an atheist to also recognize that the very same stance may of course also be held by theists in the very same way.
But that's the same old problem. Theists so often take human experience as what it feels like to them, moreover conditioned by their tribal upbringing, or godUlike. They can't all be right. The atheist skepticsm is surely more reasonable.
Of course, you may be thinking of a non -religious 'god', and personal contact with/experience of it. I get that. Atheism does. It admits the possibility. I got into Buddhism because I hoped to experience this
enlightenment' that Theists call 'god'. I'm not so bothered not as i rather think it is a common human phenomenon of the mind. Deconverts have confirmed 'I thought for so long that I was talking to God, but I realised I was only talking to myself'.
I have experienced mental effects myself including, I think deconversion, which is like taking Jesus into your heart, except you take it out.
I know Tolkien saw this from the Christian point of view. But I am struck by how much better it works as secularism. Especially the anger deconverts feel when they realised how they were deceived and manipulated.
You see why 'atheists know nothing about it and don't want to know' is based on the wrong view that theists have because they know nothing about atheism and don't want to know. Particularly that half maybe used to believe bu could't keep their fingers in their ears for ever.
If you want to prove me wrong in your case, take the opportunity to learn something about atheism, and you may learn some alternative hypotheses about theism too.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-01-2023 at 08:11 AM..
It fascinates me that there might be atheists that spend as much time thinking about atheism as those of a religious bent spend thinking about their religion.
I was attracted by the title of this post. I wonder if the majority of Atheists think they are on to a new atheism now, or if they even bother to think about it. As an atheist, I'm going back to not thinking about it.
It fascinates me that there might be atheists that spend as much time thinking about atheism as those of a religious bent spend thinking about their religion.
I was attracted by the title of this post. I wonder if the majority of Atheists think they are on to a new atheism now, or if they even bother to think about it. As an atheist, I'm going back to not thinking about it.
It fascinates me that there might be atheists that spend as much time thinking about atheism as those of a religious bent spend thinking about their religion.
I was attracted by the title of this post. I wonder if the majority of Atheists think they are on to a new atheism now, or if they even bother to think about it. As an atheist, I'm going back to not thinking about it.
It's a topic of philosophical interest more than anything, to me anyway. One of my favorite authors is the British philosopher John Gray, and he wrote a book called 'Seven Types of Atheism', which I read within a week of its release. Gray (an atheist himself) isn't the biggest fan of Richard Dawkins specifically, but despite that disagreement and others I may have had while reading the book, I found it to be a great read.
All four of the authors/thinkers most often associated with 'New Atheism' are people I respect and whose thinking has exerted at least some influence on mine, but never in my mind did it cross my mind to consider myself a 'New Atheist'. These are people who just happened to gain prominence around the same time, not collaborators in the creation of an intentional movement.
Edit to add that if you Google 'John Gray philosopher Richard Dawkins', the top result is a rather lengthy blog post from Dawkins' fellow evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne titled 'John Gray's scurrilous attack on Richard Dawkins'. I'm likely to be spending much of the rest of my day monitoring my week 4 NFL bets (Christian Kirk over 53.5 yards hit by halftime, good start to the day, heh), but maybe I'll find some time to read that somewhat dated (it's from 2014) post
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 10-01-2023 at 09:04 AM..
It fascinates me that there might be atheists that spend as much time thinking about atheism as those of a religious bent spend thinking about their religion.
I was attracted by the title of this post. I wonder if the majority of Atheists think they are on to a new atheism now, or if they even bother to think about it. As an atheist, I'm going back to not thinking about it.
I see from your profile that you've written nearly 4000 posts on romantic / non romantic relationships. Those would be topics wouldn't interest me at all. I guess we all have our own things that float our boat.
Sam Harris, while he's been my favorite for a long time, he baffles me these days with how focused he seems to be on all the spirituality and mindfulness and meditation type stuff. He's forever one of my all time heroes (along with Hitchens) as far as all the epic, logical, rational brutal take downs of religion, and all the just great, well thought out positions he reasons on everything- I agree with his politics, too. He's the best, clearest intellectual thinker and communicator of our time, IMO. But, then he kind of loses me with all of the "expand your mind and consciousness"... almost with a 'new age' vibe to it. Probably just my ignorance and just personal taste, but, it's just strange to me that something sort of like a mysticism vibe is coming so much from him, of all people, the most fierce, brutal intellectual opponent there is of religion and irrationality.
Dennett is the quiet, soft spoken, least known one of the 4. I need to read more of his work. I know he defends more of a compatibilism with regards to free will, in contrast with Harris' arguments in complete opposition to the notion of free will.
Dawkins, always liked him in general, love the way he explains science, and he's the foremost authority on evolution and Darwinism (probably more than even Darwin), but he can be a little annoying with his take on atheism. Somehow preachy type of annoying, I don't know how to explain it. Arrogant in a non charming way. Opposes religion even more than Hitchens did, who was more of a man of the world and appreciating culture. Which is weird, because Dawkins is not even a hard atheist like Hitchens and others. He just has a basic default position type of soft atheism, citing lack of evidence, "there's probably no god" type of atheist. Just seems contrasting with how much of a stuck record he is with hating religion. But I love that guy too.
Hitchens was... well, there will never be another Hitchens. Just the best. His great speeches on religion, politics, everything. All coupled with that funny wit and lovable personality.
If we're going to have a new generation of prominent and vocal atheists and all that, leading the charge for the cause, they're going to have be really smart, really learned people, to even compare with those guys, especially Harris and Hitch.
Who are some of the promising young prospects on the scene?
I saw Dawkins interviewed recently. I can't remember who interviewed him so not sure if I'd be able to find the interview now, but he was asked about Islam and he refused to talk about it. This was not long after Salman Rushdie had been brutally attacked and the interviewer asked him if that's why he didn't want to answer questions and Dawkins just plainly said he didnt want to talk about it. I also remember him saying something to the effect of he'd been mis-represented in the past.
I saw Dawkins interviewed recently. I can't remember who interviewed him so not sure if I'd be able to find the interview now, but he was asked about Islam and he refused to talk about it. This was not long after Salman Rushdie had been brutally attacked and the interviewer asked him if that's why he didn't want to answer questions and Dawkins just plainly said he didnt want to talk about it. I also remember him saying something to the effect of he'd been mis-represented in the past.
Yeah, I think it was the Piers Morgan interview he did.
It is a shame that religious people are such heinous, immoral murderers, and that the world just seems to be cool with that, in the name of "tolerance", or "diversity" or whatever.
Yeah, I think it was the Piers Morgan interview he did.
It is a shame that religious people are such heinous, immoral murderers, and that the world just seems to be cool with that, in the name of "tolerance", or "diversity" or whatever.
i'm curious how many atheists hold the beliefs stated in bold above.
among the atheist readers here on CD
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-01-2023 at 11:28 AM..
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