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Perhaps predictably, I picked up 'Waking Up' five minutes after I finished writing my last post to give it another shot. This time around, I'm probably just going to power through my skepticism of Sam's project in that book and read it cover-to-cover. I'm already enjoying it more this time around (I remember being quite bored by it previously)
Do it on shrooms.
Harris talks about psychedelics quite a bit. Meditation can get these experiences. Harris thinks the ability to meditate is like with everything else; some people pick it up and some people have more trouble. I personally feel I don't have a great aptitude for mediation so shrooms might speed it up. All of my experiences have been spontaneous and not as the result of some effort but more having my worldview suddenly tipped on me.
getting high or drunk or stoned or strung out
obscures clarity,
rather than increasing clarity
if clarity is what a person seeks, then booze and drugs and pot and hallucinogens do not facilitate that.
they are instead an obstacle and a barrier.
they don't make a person wise.
think about it. being around people who are stoned, drunk, high, potheads, strung out is not the experience of being around people who are wise.
if wisdom and clarity are what a person may seek to have more of in their life, that is. i just can't picture seriously seeking or seeing as a role model mentor teacher or guru (and yes Sam Harris ), someone who thinks getting high stoned drunk strung out makes them better at anything or improves them in an any way. my observation is that like attracts like. if someone is looking for an excuse to use or get high, then that's the sort of teacher they may seek out.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-30-2023 at 03:44 PM..
For instance from Sam Harris, a parent who sees it as a given that his children will do drugs. He plans to coach them into doing drugs "wisely." He doesn't even see it as possible, nor does he see it as desirable, to live a life without recreational drug use. He literally says he's fine with them taking LSD and psychedelics and alcohol. But will "steer them away from tobacco." I can't even read this with a straight face. He actually would feel bad if his children did NOT take something like LSD as an adult because he feels they would have "missed out" on "one of the most important rites" as a human.
"I have two daughters who will one day take drugs. Of course, I will do everything in my power to see that they choose their drugs wisely, but a life lived entirely without drugs is neither foreseeable nor, I think, desirable. If they drink alcohol as adults, as they probably will, I will encourage them to do it safely. If they choose to smoke marijuana, I will urge moderation. Tobacco should be shunned, and I will do everything within the bounds of decent parenting to steer them away from it. Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamine or crack cocaine, I might never sleep again. But if they don’t try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human being can experience."
some of us grow up in a household where we hear from our parents "One day you will go to college."
While kids in Sam Harris home are groomed hearing "One day you will take drugs, including psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin, at least once." THese children grow up being taught "doing LSD is one of the most important experiences" that a human being can have.
i remember hearing once something about how to discern between and among those who we let into our life, or who we keep at a distance and perhaps choose not to associate with. they said (and this has always stuck with me), "Ask yourself: Is this someone I'd trust to look after my children?" That's what came to mind reading the Sam Harris article about grooming his own kids his own daughters to take hallucinogenic drugs.
and this is someone people look up to and adulate and admire as a pillar and spokesperson of atheism?
on this thread alone readers sing his praises with "he's been my favorite for a long time" "I'm a big fan of Harris" "have read five of his books and have to consider him my favorite"
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-30-2023 at 05:09 PM..
Coming in cold, the Op - well, who cares what Christians say about atheism. They know nothing about it and don't want to know. They were wrong with 'New atheism' (which is just old atheism that refused to keep quiet) and are wrong that New (or old) atheism is dead, or there is any New, new atheism. I don't even think its' ignorance, it is propaganda, and what a situation with a religion claiming the High Moral ground resorting to the dirty tricks of political propaganda. But the New New Christianity is now all about political propaganda. As Critical Drinker says "Believe That!". But we seem to have got onto the decline of religion. It's probably too soon (if ever) for rival religions to band together (last time was to counter the Shout of Doubt after the Tsunami) to stand against the threat of the atheists (cooled down after the last panic following the Pe review). I imagine with even more politicisation of religion, they are going to be less tolerant of wrong believers than ever. I am always bemused by the continued support of Catholics for that religion. You'd think with the dirty washing of the Vatican, hung out to dry, they'd have had enough, but they just carry on with faith. Maybe a 'Where else are we to go? We know you have the secrets of Life' situation. Mind, it was the scandal in Ireland that definitely started a move to shift Catholicism from a position of influence in Ireland. No wonder they now have the world No 1 Rugby team. "Now thou hast turned thy face from the shills and liars of that fake religion, my children, thou mayest thrash the Springboks."
regarding bold above,
it can just as easily be said, "who cares what atheists say about divinity. They know nothing about it and don't want to know."
what atheists say about god is inconsequential to believers, because it can't get much more "know nothing about it" (god, divinity) than to deny that it even exists. the bold above is certainly a stance that makes perfect sense to an atheist. Therefore it is logical for an atheist to also recognize that the very same stance may of course also be held by theists in the very same way.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-30-2023 at 06:45 PM..
regarding bold above, it can just as easily be said, "who cares what atheists say about divinity. They know nothing about it and don't want to know."
what atheists say about god is inconsequential to believers, because it can't get much more "know nothing about it" (god, divinity) than to deny that it even exists. the bold above is certainly a stance that makes perfect sense to an atheist. Therefore it is logical for an atheist to also recognize that the very same stance may of course also be held by theists in the very same way.
You're wrong.
With maybe a FEW exceptions, the godists on this site have never been atheists.
With maybe a FEW exceptions, the atheists here have either left christianity or grew up in homes where christianity was practiced. For example myself -- from age 8-16 I went almost weekly to the Methodist Church (not by choice), and from age 16-some point around age 40 I self-identified as a catholic, and after age 40 the catholic phase began to peter out (pun intended).
This is over a decade old now, but here's Sam completely dismantling the claim of free will, a concept which is of course central to Christianity (but also clung to by many atheists). Hour long, but great listen.
Note that in the middle of this he actually defends personal responsibility, and the possibility of oneself to change in the direction that they want to change. He notes that we do have choices/decisions in life, and our choices/decisions matter. But it's all within the context of the fact of the universe, that there are no causal forces besides determinism and randomness.
He also defends morality, and a strong criminal justice system. It's a great listen for anyone to think about all the points and distinctions he's making.
(In talking about what society/justice system should do with a murderer, given no free will): "The point is not that you are the sole independent cause of your behavior- the point is that, for whatever reason, you have the mind of a murderer. You are not ultimately responsible for the fact that you have that mind, no more so than a crocodile is responsible for the fact that it is a crocodile. But a crocodile really is a crocodile, and it really will eat you."
I really love that point. There are so many misconceptions about how people or a society would function without the belief in the magical illusion of free will.
This is over a decade old now, but here's Sam completely dismantling the claim of free will, a concept which is of course central to Christianity (but also clung to by many atheists). Hour long, but great listen.
Note that in the middle of this he actually defends personal responsibility, and the possibility of oneself to change in the direction that they want to change. He notes that we do have choices/decisions in life, and our choices/decisions matter. But it's all within the context of the fact of the universe, that there are no causal forces besides determinism and randomness.
He also defends morality, and a strong criminal justice system. It's a great listen for anyone to think about all the points and distinctions he's making.
(In talking about what society/justice system should do with a murderer, given no free will): "The point is not that you are the sole independent cause of your behavior- the point is that, for whatever reason, you have the mind of a murderer. You are not ultimately responsible for the fact that you have that mind, no more so than a crocodile is responsible for the fact that it is a crocodile. But a crocodile really is a crocodile, and it really will eat you."
I really love that point. There are so many misconceptions about how people or a society would function without the belief in the magical illusion of free will.
I listened to this neuroscientist before running across what Harris had to say. This guy has some fascinating videos that you'd probably like if you like Harris. I agree that we don't have free will in any meaningful way. It really has helped me deal with some people. It's the heart of the phrase "there but for the Grace of God go I." I remember it when I am dealing with difficult people. That could be me and I am just thankful it's not.
For instance from Sam Harris, a parent who sees it as a given that his children will do drugs. He plans to coach them into doing drugs "wisely." He doesn't even see it as possible, nor does he see it as desirable, to live a life without recreational drug use. He literally says he's fine with them taking LSD and psychedelics and alcohol. But will "steer them away from tobacco." I can't even read this with a straight face. He actually would feel bad if his children did NOT take something like LSD as an adult because he feels they would have "missed out" on "one of the most important rites" as a human.
"I have two daughters who will one day take drugs. Of course, I will do everything in my power to see that they choose their drugs wisely, but a life lived entirely without drugs is neither foreseeable nor, I think, desirable. If they drink alcohol as adults, as they probably will, I will encourage them to do it safely. If they choose to smoke marijuana, I will urge moderation. Tobacco should be shunned, and I will do everything within the bounds of decent parenting to steer them away from it. Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamine or crack cocaine, I might never sleep again. But if they don’t try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human being can experience."
some of us grow up in a household where we hear from our parents "One day you will go to college."
While kids in Sam Harris home are groomed hearing "One day you will take drugs, including psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin, at least once." THese children grow up being taught "doing LSD is one of the most important experiences" that a human being can have.
Sigh, another simple concept we must explain to you.
There is a difference between a parent saying the obvious to someone else, that children will take drugs and alcohol, and saying to the children themselves that they will take drugs and alcohol.
Instead of taking your bolded parts of the quote and misrepresenting what was actually said, the honest thing to do would be to respond to the whole quote in context, instead of pretend Harris was grooming his children, and pretending he was saying things to his children.
Last edited by L8Gr8Apost8; 10-01-2023 at 01:15 AM..
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