Destiny USA update (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse: appointed, waterpark, homes)
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I think malls have to be extravagant these days in order to survive as such. Lifestyle centers and plazas seem to be the thing, along with main streets. I still wish that the project could have stretched along the Inner Harbor, through Franklin Square and into Downtown. That way it could form a connection and could include other things(housing, aquarium, amphitheater, etc.) along the way.
I doubt it will make much of a dent into Destiny's numbers. Based on conversations with seasonal Canadians down here and on my travels to Syracuse, taxes, prices, variety of stores and selection of items in Ottawa pale in comparison to that of Syracuse, particularly Destiny. Speaking with a couple of friendly girls returning to Ottawa from Las Vegas on my way to Syracuse, they said they have yet to land a Target, let alone the selection of Destiny. Both were staying in Syracuse for a couple of days to shop before returning to Ottawa.
I could see this new outlet center in suburban Ottawa serving the same purpose as say Town Center in Fayetteville, or Great Northern for quick local shopping. Taxes and prices in Canada will avert any impact on the Syracuse area retailers, even with the price of gas.
Canadians in general are very skeptical and not usually impressed by Canadian outlet malls. To most people, they are not "real" (discounted) outlet malls and the real deals are still in the States - in both outlet malls and traditional malls. This is why even in a huge city like Toronto many many people still go to Niagara Falls (NY) and Buffalo to shop.
Canadians in general are very skeptical and not usually impressed by Canadian outlet malls. To most people, they are not "real" (discounted) outlet malls and the real deals are still in the States - in both outlet malls and traditional malls. This is why even in a huge city like Toronto many many people still go to Niagara Falls (NY) and Buffalo to shop.
Basically what the two girls on our trip were telling us when we traveled to Syracuse. There is a huge cost differential, i.e., taxes, price, value of the Cdollar vs. USdollar, etc. The cost of doing business up there seems to be a problem too which seems to help the upstate New York economy. I am not sure where you are from, but I was shocked by the amount of sales taxes they pay in Quebec. Many buy here in Florida and take it back, or to Vermont or Plattsburgh when they are home. In any event, we still enjoy traveling to Montreal and Ottawa..both beautiful (but expensive) cities.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 05-17-2012 at 11:53 AM..
Basically what the two girls on our trip were telling us when we traveled to Syracuse. There is a huge cost differential, i.e., taxes, price, value of the Cdollar vs. USdollar, etc. The cost of doing business up there seems to be a problem too which seems to help the upstate New York economy. I am not sure where you are from, but I was shocked by the amount of sales taxes they pay in Quebec. Many buy here in Florida and take it back, or to Vermont or Plattsburgh when they are home. In any event, we still enjoy traveling to Montreal and Ottawa..both beautiful (but expensive) cities.
I live in Quebec but on the border with Ontario near Ottawa. Sales taxes are fairly similar in both provinces, at about 13% in Ontario, and 14.5% in Quebec.
The highest in Canada are on the east coast in PEI and Nova Scotia where they are in the 15 to 15.5% range.
I live in Quebec but on the border with Ontario near Ottawa. Sales taxes are fairly similar in both provinces, at about 13% in Ontario, and 14.5% in Quebec.
The highest in Canada are on the east coast in PEI and Nova Scotia where they are in the 15 to 15.5% range.
wow, that is amazingly high! Well, you guys are always welcome here in the states. I don't think that Destiny or any retail destination in Syracuse, Buffalo, etc. have anything to worry about then. Are sales tax revenues used solely to pay for your universal health care system to justify the those high rates or is there a Federal contribution? It is my understanding that health care is a provincial responsibilty. Don't mean to go off into another dimension, just curious. Thanks.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 05-18-2012 at 10:55 AM..
wow, that is amazingly high! Well, you guys are always welcome here in the states. I don't think that Destiny or any retail destination in Syracuse, Buffalo, etc. have anything to worry about then. Are sales tax revenues used solely to pay for your universal health care system to justify the those high rates or is there a Federal contribution? It is my understanding that health care is a provincial responsibilty. Don't mean to go off into another dimension, just curious. Thanks.
Sales taxes are not typically dedicated to a specific program in Canada. They just go into general government revenues.
In the sales tax rates I quoted previously, 5% is the federal goods and services tax, with the rest being provincial tax and the rate varying from province to province. Alberta out West which has all the oil money has zero provincial sales tax, so there you only pay the federal 5%.
Health care is a provincial responsibility but the federal government provides a portion of the money for it to the provinces in the form of transfer payments.
All of those taxes help pay for health care of course, and also for other stuff like inexpensive university tuition fees, 7$-a-day childcare for everyone, paid parental leave, etc. (Speaking for Quebec here - every province tends to have its own social programs.)
BTW - Target is coming to Canada later this year or in 2013. They bought out most of a Canadian chain called Zellers.
In a way, this may be good thing and hopefully, this could allow the Inner Harbor to develop in a way that it can also be a mixed use destination that bridges the gap between DestinyUSA and Franklin Square/Downtown.
I actually think this is a great opportunity. I supported the original Destiny USA concept when it was the only "game" in town twelve years ago, long before the Connective Corridor, Creekwalk, COR's proposed inner-harbor development, Loguen Crossing, CofE, Biotech Center, NWS, the "boom" in downtown housing, etc. Most of which is completed, under construction or on the drawing boards.
I have since had a change of heart and noted after the COR inner-harbor proposal that a reassessment of the area between Hiawatha Blvd and Bear Street (which was included in the PILOT agreement) should be considered. New development within that area should be compatible with COR's concept and Franklin Square. I don't think that a hotel is out of the realm of possiblity adjacent to the existing/expanded mall when the financial markets rebound. Plus, the COR proposal includes a boutique hotel that I think fits well within that area.
Prolonged litigation (not blaming one side or the other) and the poor economy doomed the expansion. I think the City gave Congel enough time to finish the current expansion because too much was invested in it. Also, I think Congel was not willing to pay the City for another extension.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 06-06-2012 at 12:30 PM..
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