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I wish the vision of Destiny USA had the Inner Harbor in mind and in turn serve as a connection between Carousel Center and Franklin Square and beyond. You could make the project "green" by reusing former warehouses not only for housing, but for retail. That is also where the aquarium idea could have been planted. So, it could have been a truly mixed use project in many ways.
The Pyramid vision here has been well-executed from the perspective of its own self-interest.
Most malls are surrounded by retail; urban malls give rise to retail on adjacent blocks, suburban malls give rise to outparcels. Under Pyramid's grand (and very improbable) scheme, it acquired dozens of acres south and east of the mall. It's on an island; no one else is building retail and profiting from Pyramid's investment.
Fantastic for the mall developer, bad for the neighbors, patrons, and the city at large. If only the Bernardi and Driscoll administrations had considered the potential unintended consequences of handing away so much land for an undefined project.
Sounds to me like we agree - both intersections are overbuilt for through traffic; Harrison supports (however unpleasantly) pedestrian crossings, Hiawatha (directly between the city's much-touted stadium/market and Inner Harbor revitalization areas) is moving away from supporting pedestrian activity.
More or less. I've often complained about the stupidity of the whole area's walkability. Even the train/bus station/market/stadium area... it's unbelievable just how badly that whole area is designed for anything other than driving use.
I don't know that I'd argue that most of that Harrison/Almond interchange supports pedestrian crossings, really. It's barely appropriately configured to support the vehicle traffic it's supposedly designed for - it's just a mess purporting to be a working interchange.
On Saturday, I tried walking the last leg of the creekwalk (from Carousel to Onondaga Lake) and ended up walking through the bushes from the parking lot near Lord & Taylor as I did not see any path or connection from Carousel Center. Do any of the parking lots at Carousel Center have designated paths that connect to the Creekwalk? If not, this is just another example of how inept the city is in making Congel and other developers comply with guidelines (assuming there are any).
Regarding the design of the facade - why didn't the city require Congel to meet certain design standards (i.e brick, more windows to compliment the industrial nature of the north side and Franklin Square neighborhooods)? This would have increased the cost but also improved the blighted landscape in that area and restored at least one modicum of goodwill that some of the staunchest supporters may have once had for Congel (not that he cares what people think of him). While the older portion of the mall was certainly not attractive, it at least had glass atriums that looked significantly better than the cinder block prison expansion that includes several squares of ugly glass that were installed after the fact.
One potential concern - Congel may want to patch up the exterior with a significant number of neon signs and other lighting. The Planning Board shouldn't give him carte blanche in doing this as the mall may end up looking more hideous with Las Vegas style signage viewable from many areas of the city. Due to the size of the project and being outside of an historic district, I'm not sure if the Planning Board has any means to restrict the type of lighting.
On Saturday, I tried walking the last leg of the creekwalk (from Carousel to Onondaga Lake) and ended up walking through the bushes from the parking lot near Lord & Taylor as I did not see any path or connection from Carousel Center. Do any of the parking lots at Carousel Center have designated paths that connect to the Creekwalk? If not, this is just another example of how inept the city is in making Congel and other developers comply with guidelines (assuming there are any).
Regarding the design of the facade - why didn't the city require Congel to meet certain design standards (i.e brick, more windows to compliment the industrial nature of the north side and Franklin Square neighborhooods)? This would have increased the cost but also improved the blighted landscape in that area and restored at least one modicum of goodwill that some of the staunchest supporters may have once had for Congel (not that he cares what people think of him). While the older portion of the mall was certainly not attractive, it at least had glass atriums that looked significantly better than the cinder block prison expansion that includes several squares of ugly glass that were installed after the fact.
One potential concern - Congel may want to patch up the exterior with a significant number of neon signs and other lighting. The Planning Board shouldn't give him carte blanche in doing this as the mall may end up looking more hideous with Las Vegas style signage viewable from many areas of the city. Due to the size of the project and being outside of an historic district, I'm not sure if the Planning Board has any means to restrict the type of lighting.
It might have to do with anytime the planning commission or any other city agency tries to hold them to any rule, regulation, or god forbid their own signed contracts, Congel takes them to court rather than make any reasonable effort to be a good neighbor. And anytime they do and Pyramid does anything, the city gets attacked for making things take longer.
I don't know that there have ever been any direct connection plans with the creekwalk since it more or less dumps you off at the edge of the parking lot - but I'm not sure what power they have to compel any actual connection either. Very unfortunate.
Last edited by acknight; 04-24-2012 at 10:21 AM..
Reason: revision
It might have to do with anytime the planning commission or any other city agency tries to hold them to any rule, regulation, or god forbid their own signed contracts, Congel takes them to court rather than make any reasonable effort to be a good neighbor.
I don't know that there have ever been any direct connection plans with the creekwalk since it more or less dumps you off at the edge of the parking lot - but I'm not sure what power they have to compel any actual connection either. Very unfortunate.
I agree it's very unfortunate. This situation may get even worse now that the Common Council has more authority in planning decisions after several former councilors and several current ones tried to circumvent the planning process last year. Luckily, several of the new councilors including Helen Hudson and Khalid Bey let cooler heads prevail and decided not to go forward with amending the city charter to give the council veto power over planning board decisions. Unfortunately, the council did gain additional power by having the ability to order a public hearing on any project, including ones the Planning Board determines are incomplete.
IMO, the one-stop destination bit is more of the problem I've had all along. The whole original point of the original Carousel Center PILOT was to spur non-Congel development in the surrounding area. With few exceptions (Stella's Diner, in spite of the eminent domain threat at the time; a Babies R Us and a Wendy's), it's done more to isolate itself than connect it to the rest of this city.
That's not sustainable, and it's not eminently useful for revitalizing this city. It's a huge mall that is more and more an island unto itself - and that's not going to revitalize much of anything. The record of spinoff success is... pitiful, and vital to the future of this city.
I never would promote Destiny as the "silver bullet" that will somehow revitalize or reverse the city's fortunes. Contrary, it should be seen as a component of economic development within (say) tourism. If any community depends on a mall or shopping center for its future, that community should fail!!
Yet despite its flaws and controversies (and there are many), Destiny is a huge draw for the community. It can be used to attract people to the area and act as a "gateway" (not thee "gateway") to entice visitors to visit/return to places like Armory Square, future inner-harbor development, etc. Secondly, the reverse can be true, other city attractions could be used as "gateways" to direct visitors to Destiny. Attractions like the Connective Corridor and the Creekwalk can be used to "bridge" that divide. It is a simple case of marketing and improving on those past flaws that can address some of the problems you cited.
All of this raises a good point, Carousel Center may be an island unto itself because it was conceived and built long before the redevelopment and transformation the City is now experiencing. Its is a matter of correcting those flaws and "bridging" those gaps.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 04-24-2012 at 11:07 AM..
I believe Destiny USA would be good especially in winter months for people not involved in any sports/activities if things go as announced. It would certainly be good for tourism given Syr's central location.
The creekwalk needs to be improved especially from the Franklin square to the lakefront area and should be made user friendly. The creekwalk connection to the mall and downtown would certainly enhance the walkability score of the city in general.
The true revitalization would be when companies open sites in syracuse increasing jobs and encouraging folks graduating from schools to stay....
It might have to do with anytime the planning commission or any other city agency tries to hold them to any rule, regulation, or god forbid their own signed contracts, Congel takes them to court rather than make any reasonable effort to be a good neighbor. And anytime they do and Pyramid does anything, the city gets attacked for making things take longer.
I don't know that there have ever been any direct connection plans with the creekwalk since it more or less dumps you off at the edge of the parking lot - but I'm not sure what power they have to compel any actual connection either. Very unfortunate.
This. It's not the fault of the city.
Kind of ties in to my other post. Pyramid has cast its lot in the mold of a Las Vegas casino: arrive by car, don't leave. They don't want any interaction with surrounding neighborhoods and potential competition for retail or entertainment dollars.
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