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If Sundance is the most hated town in Wyoming, it must be the best kept secret too. I have friends that live in Sundance and have lived there for over 40 years. They love it.
It is a small town and like most small towns, finding rentals is tough. The only jobs available are service industry jobs, working in the convienience store, or waiting tables, etc... There is no industry, no manufacturing, so the local gas station or cafe is about the only place to look for work.
Somebody mentioned, take a look around Sheridan. Sheridan is a town of about 18,000 and has some jobs and lots of things going on. There are several small towns of 400-800 in the surrounding area. So you can live in one of the smaller towns and yet only drive 10-15 minutes into Sheridan to work, go to college, recreate, etc...
Look at Story, Big Horn, Ranchester, Dayton, and even Buffalo (33 miles away, nice little town). All right up against the Big Horn Mountains. Very beautiful and well protected by the mountain when storms roll through. They usually go over top of us and land East of Sheridan.
I just moved to Buffalo. I chose it because I worked there for several summers while I was in school and I know a few people in town. I love the town, the people are friendly. I moved from Indiana. Jobs are hard to come by unless you like cleaning motel rooms, working in fast food, or maybe waiting tables. As some have said, you may have better luck with Sheridan.
I work in Douglas and I think it's a good town. There is a lot of work there in the oil fields so it's pretty busy. Busier than Buffalo.
Keep in mind no matter where you go in Wyoming, the rent is liable to be astronomically more expensive than what you are used to in small town Tennessee. The winters are also a lot colder to expect higher utility bills than what you are accustomed too.
I often wonder when I see this type of thread about a sight-unseen relocation to a "small town" in Wyoming what the goal/intent of the OP is about.
As I see it ... and I mean this in the figurative sense of the paradigm of what the OP expects, what they've formed their opinons about Wyoming life may be ... and in the literal sense, having seen so many folk move here with the best of intentions and leaving in a short while with their dreams shattered because Wyoming simply isn't what they thought it was going to be. There are significant social, economic, and climate issues here which many folk take for granted or make assumptions about based upon their current living situations and a disneyized ideal of what is here, and they've set themselves up for disappointment when WY life doesn't live up to their dreams.
I'll suggest again that you make a list of what it is that you depend upon and enjoy as part of your daily life in your current environment that is important to you. Include those things that you take for granted because you may find that you'll not have them here. Folk discover the hard way that many "little" things ... like restaurants, or theaters, or movie screens, or lots of bars, or shopping options ... don't exist here, at least not on the scale that they are used to. You'll not be ordering a delivery pizza in many towns in WY ... you'll not have lots of local TV stations ... you'll not have big league pro sports stadiums nearby. Only you can determine how necessary these items are to your happiness.
And while your neighbors may be of assistance here, understand that you will generally have to be self-reliant to a significant degree, too, and reciprocate ... it's not a one-way street as some folk I've encountered here seem to think. I've seen a lot of folk move here that have created their own distress situations; for the most part, we're all willing to help our neighbors in distress when needed, but when it becomes a cycle of dependency, that becomes an imposition that isn't necessarily welcome.
Wyoming's small towns are a total change of so many aspects of small town living compared to the population and geographically dense proximity of small towns in the eastern USA. Take a look at a map, OP ... and you may see what I'm talking about. In TN, small towns are still very close together and the distance to the larger economic centers is minimal; oft times, a matter of minutes and just a few miles away. The population density means that your local access to shopping, recreation, entertainment, jobs, medical services, restaurants (with a widely varied selection), education, etc., is still virtually at your fingertips. The local "small town" environment there may be less expensive than living close to the economic centers simply because it's got lots of choices but at some distance away from the higher priced land close to the action.
Look at that map again for WY ... and see how far apart the small towns are here. Understand that many of those small towns have little or no retail, shopping, restaurants, entertainment, very limited medical faciities (if any), and so forth. Your access to a job market ... even low level service jobs ... becomes very limited. Your access to a rental housing market ... becomes very limited. Your access to a livable situation of an income sufficient to provide housing, utilities, transportation, food, recreation, entertainment ... becomes very limited. It's not like the next "small town" with all the stuff that you don't have ready access to is just a couple miles down the road and your bedroom community is cheap and your costs of living are cheap. Understand, too, that small towns like Sundance are dependent upon seasonal business and that much activity is shut down during the winter months; there's only so many clerking and waitstaff jobs in town that persist in the winter months at minimal pay.
Know in advance that public transportation is virtually non-existent in WY, especially in the small towns. You will be very dependent upon personal transportation, and you will need a reliable and suitable vehicle for the distances and the inclement weather that presents. An inexpensive old beat-up jalopy that you can keep running with duct tape and baling wire doesn't cut it here. You need something in decent condition ... at a minimum, a reliable FWD car that you can afford to license, insure, and operate with little more than basic routine maintenance. I think you'll find that insurance alone will be a significant expense for a 22-yr old in this marketplace.
IMO, the small town environment in WY can be extremely limiting. You'll find nice folk in many of them, but understand that you may not necessarily fit into the real close-knit social, economic, family, or religious circle of people there. Best to understand up front that "small town" isolated living here does not equate to "cheap and inexpensive" living.
I'd not suggest that you begin in WY by imposing such restrictions upon yourself as will be limited in your choices/options in the small towns. IMO, you'll find more opportunities for what you've outlined in the larger towns ... more opportunities for housing, employment, social interaction, entertainment, recreation, shopping, and other services. With that in mind, out of the list of towns of interest, I'd be looking at Sheridan.
As always, I cannot over-emphasize coming out here for a visit to explore your employment opportunities and projected income re your projected costs of living here; ie, affordability. Make a point of coming out here during the winter months and see if the daily challenges are what you want to live with. Look at it from the standpoint of living here as opposed to a tourist visit where you get to leave it behind in a few days. Some folk will find that it suits them well and adapting is easy. Others won't. Best to move here with a financial cushion and minimal obligations lined up.
I've never heard what the above poster (Joe33) said about Sundance, but it is very small, mostly an ag based economy. I don't know about rentals. I do know of one very small house (a second property on a single lot) that's been empty for awhile, but I've never been in it. I don't know about the job market there. I'm sure jobs are scarce since it's so small, but I imagine there are a few. The people I've met from Sundance have been very friendly -- so much so that it stands out as a friendly place. It's in the northern Black Hills, so I'd call it a scenic area.
Newcastle is also at the edge of the Black Hills. It's a little larger town (still small) with an oil and ag based economy. It looks a little run-down compared to some towns, but it seems friendly enough. It has a lot of history associated with it -- one of the older towns in Wyoming.
Douglas is nice. It's seen more growth in recent years than some. It's not far from Laramie Peak, so the mountains aren't too far, but I'd call it a prairie town. Again, most folks I've known from Douglas were friendly.
My favorite of the ones you posted is Buffalo. It's situated against the Big Horn Mountains. Very pretty area. It also has a lot of Old West history associated with it -- site of the Johnson County Range Wars (cattle barons vs. sheepmen, etc.), not far from some of the famous Indian battles, stomping grounds of Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid (who got his nickname from time spent in the Sundance jail) and the rest of the Hole in the Wall gang. It seems to be a close knit community. I've noticed big crowds for local events. Again, friendly folks. I'd guess rents would be a little higher than in Newcastle of Sundance, but there may also be more jobs.
As you probably already know, rentals will be harder to come by with a dog, and the bigger and badder the dog, the harder to find a place, but with time you'll be able to find a rental, probably in any of the towns you mentioned. But finding a "nice" place that will accept your dog AND that you can afford on a waitress' income might be tough. A lot of young people with lower incomes share a place.
I can go on and on and on for pages about all the things wrong with Sundance but I don't really want to.
Just ask yourself this.
Sundance is located in one of the most beautiful places in Wyoming. Lots of good hunting, good winter sports. lots of hiking and other outdoor sports. There are decent jobs in either spearfish(30min) or Gillette (50min). Yet few people live there. There is nothing in Sundance. As mentioned, a few bars, 4 gas stations a hardware store a small supermarket and a few hotels. There is lots of land and most of it available.
Sundance and Crook county have the lowest electricity rates in the USA. Around 0.05 cents per KW and you can get it cheaper and is located right next to the I-90.
Why aren't businesses attracted to that place? The fact is that they are. But they are shown the door because with money comes power and the locals are afraid of outsiders with power.
Now ask yourself. Why is everyone who lives there old? Mainly retired.
Unfortunatly these days the local governments don't rely on the people and small businesses anymore for their revenue. They get it from the State and Fed. Mainly in the form of new schools and other types of construction.
But make your own decision.
The town I live in is not much better. But that is Wyoming.
I can go on and on and on for pages about all the things wrong with Sundance but I don't really want to.
Just ask yourself this.
Sundance is located in one of the most beautiful places in Wyoming. Lots of good hunting, good winter sports. lots of hiking and other outdoor sports. There are decent jobs in either spearfish(30min) or Gillette (50min). Yet few people live there. There is nothing in Sundance. As mentioned, a few bars, 4 gas stations a hardware store a small supermarket and a few hotels. There is lots of land and most of it available.
Sundance and Crook county have the lowest electricity rates in the USA. Around 0.05 cents per KW and you can get it cheaper and is located right next to the I-90.
Why aren't businesses attracted to that place? The fact is that they are. But they are shown the door because with money comes power and the locals are afraid of outsiders with power.
Now ask yourself. Why is everyone who lives there old? Mainly retired.
Unfortunatly these days the local governments don't rely on the people and small businesses anymore for their revenue. They get it from the State and Fed. Mainly in the form of new schools and other types of construction.
But make your own decision.
The town I live in is not much better. But that is Wyoming.
You have described every small town in Wyoming. Business is not going to move into a small town, be it Sundance or any other small town. It's really very simple. The business needs to go in and start, right away. They can't wait for employee base to move into town in order to support their staffing requirements. If the town doesn't have an employee base, they won't move there.
The only time business will move into a small town is if there are larger towns around, within driving distance so they can get the required staff. Sundance is simply left out in the open with no larger towns to support it. You mentioned working in Spearfish. With the college there, most retail and service jobs are taken by college students, so unless you have a trade or skill, going to look for work in Spearfish is just not going to happen.
So it's a round robin affair. Business wont move in because there are not people to support it. The people (younger) won't move there because there are no business' to go to work at.
I often wonder when I see this type of thread about a sight-unseen relocation to a "small town" in Wyoming what the goal/intent of the OP is about.
As I see it ... and I mean this in the figurative sense of the paradigm of what the OP expects, what they've formed their opinons about Wyoming life may be ... and in the literal sense, having seen so many folk move here with the best of intentions and leaving in a short while with their dreams shattered because Wyoming simply isn't what they thought it was going to be. There are significant social, economic, and climate issues here which many folk take for granted or make assumptions about based upon their current living situations and a disneyized ideal of what is here, and they've set themselves up for disappointment when WY life doesn't live up to their dreams.
I'll suggest again that you make a list of what it is that you depend upon and enjoy as part of your daily life in your current environment that is important to you. Include those things that you take for granted because you may find that you'll not have them here. Folk discover the hard way that many "little" things ... like restaurants, or theaters, or movie screens, or lots of bars, or shopping options ... don't exist here, at least not on the scale that they are used to. You'll not be ordering a delivery pizza in many towns in WY ... you'll not have lots of local TV stations ... you'll not have big league pro sports stadiums nearby. Only you can determine how necessary these items are to your happiness.
And while your neighbors may be of assistance here, understand that you will generally have to be self-reliant to a significant degree, too, and reciprocate ... it's not a one-way street as some folk I've encountered here seem to think. I've seen a lot of folk move here that have created their own distress situations; for the most part, we're all willing to help our neighbors in distress when needed, but when it becomes a cycle of dependency, that becomes an imposition that isn't necessarily welcome.
Wyoming's small towns are a total change of so many aspects of small town living compared to the population and geographically dense proximity of small towns in the eastern USA. Take a look at a map, OP ... and you may see what I'm talking about. In TN, small towns are still very close together and the distance to the larger economic centers is minimal; oft times, a matter of minutes and just a few miles away. The population density means that your local access to shopping, recreation, entertainment, jobs, medical services, restaurants (with a widely varied selection), education, etc., is still virtually at your fingertips. The local "small town" environment there may be less expensive than living close to the economic centers simply because it's got lots of choices but at some distance away from the higher priced land close to the action.
Look at that map again for WY ... and see how far apart the small towns are here. Understand that many of those small towns have little or no retail, shopping, restaurants, entertainment, very limited medical faciities (if any), and so forth. Your access to a job market ... even low level service jobs ... becomes very limited. Your access to a rental housing market ... becomes very limited. Your access to a livable situation of an income sufficient to provide housing, utilities, transportation, food, recreation, entertainment ... becomes very limited. It's not like the next "small town" with all the stuff that you don't have ready access to is just a couple miles down the road and your bedroom community is cheap and your costs of living are cheap. Understand, too, that small towns like Sundance are dependent upon seasonal business and that much activity is shut down during the winter months; there's only so many clerking and waitstaff jobs in town that persist in the winter months at minimal pay.
Know in advance that public transportation is virtually non-existent in WY, especially in the small towns. You will be very dependent upon personal transportation, and you will need a reliable and suitable vehicle for the distances and the inclement weather that presents. An inexpensive old beat-up jalopy that you can keep running with duct tape and baling wire doesn't cut it here. You need something in decent condition ... at a minimum, a reliable FWD car that you can afford to license, insure, and operate with little more than basic routine maintenance. I think you'll find that insurance alone will be a significant expense for a 22-yr old in this marketplace.
IMO, the small town environment in WY can be extremely limiting. You'll find nice folk in many of them, but understand that you may not necessarily fit into the real close-knit social, economic, family, or religious circle of people there. Best to understand up front that "small town" isolated living here does not equate to "cheap and inexpensive" living.
I'd not suggest that you begin in WY by imposing such restrictions upon yourself as will be limited in your choices/options in the small towns. IMO, you'll find more opportunities for what you've outlined in the larger towns ... more opportunities for housing, employment, social interaction, entertainment, recreation, shopping, and other services. With that in mind, out of the list of towns of interest, I'd be looking at Sheridan.
As always, I cannot over-emphasize coming out here for a visit to explore your employment opportunities and projected income re your projected costs of living here; ie, affordability. Make a point of coming out here during the winter months and see if the daily challenges are what you want to live with. Look at it from the standpoint of living here as opposed to a tourist visit where you get to leave it behind in a few days. Some folk will find that it suits them well and adapting is easy. Others won't. Best to move here with a financial cushion and minimal obligations lined up.
Sundance is the most hated small town in Wyoming. Most people who move there leave within 2 years.
If you manage to get a job it is unlikely it will be above minimum wage which is $5.15 and it does not go far.
I thought Federal Law kicked minimum wage up to $7.25 back in 2009? Minimum wage isn't meant to support a family.
I thought Federal Law kicked minimum wage up to $7.25 back in 2009? Minimum wage isn't meant to support a family.
IIRC, jobs where tips are part of the expected compensation are exempt from the fed minimum wage. Common to see a very low hourly wage paid in the restaurant biz ... although net earnings can be quite a bit more than minimum wage.
Noted, too, in the WY T-E is a recent article that Floyd Esquibel has introduced a bill in the current state legislature to raise WY's minimum wage to $9.00/hr. His premise is that minimum wage earners should be able to support a family with a job.
IIRC, jobs where tips are part of the expected compensation are exempt from the fed minimum wage. Common to see a very low hourly wage paid in the restaurant biz ... although net earnings can be quite a bit more than minimum wage.
Noted, too, in the WY T-E is a recent article that Floyd Esquibel has introduced a bill in the current state legislature to raise WY's minimum wage to $9.00/hr. His premise is that minimum wage earners should be able to support a family with a job.
I know there are exempt employee's in the food service industry, which is kind of unfortunate. Like you say, tips are expected to compensate for the difference. I think Food Service minimum is $3.25???? Something close in there. The problem with that is all the jobs, inside the shell of the business, falls under food service. So the dishwasher, that hasn't a hope in hell of getting tips, falls under the lower wage, just because they work in a restaurant.
I don't remember all the particulars, as it's been a while since I was a business owner. But there are standard employee's, exempt employee's, exempt food service, and then agricultural workers. But the standard (if there is such a thing) minimum wage is $7.25.
Interesting enough, this morning on the news, President Obama is planning to announce today that he is raising the Minimum Wage, for Federal Employee's only, to $10.10 and he's going to use an executive order in order to do it. I don't think the man know's what side is up. Others will demand the same and then we've opened up the flood gates to move more industry, over seas.
I know there are exempt employee's in the food service industry, which is kind of unfortunate. Like you say, tips are expected to compensate for the difference. I think Food Service minimum is $3.25???? Something close in there. The problem with that is all the jobs, inside the shell of the business, falls under food service. So the dishwasher, that hasn't a hope in hell of getting tips, falls under the lower wage, just because they work in a restaurant....
I think you're mistaken about dishwashers, etc. falling under waitressing minimum wages, EH.
But some of the regs do only apply to certain size smaller businesses, etc. My wife once worked at a restaurant (cook) in which she didn't get paid time and a half for over 40 hours because, the owner claimed, his gross sales were under a certain amount -- $500K or $1 million, something like that. He had to split the business into two businesses to stay under that threshold (separated out "catering", which was served in the adjoining building). I doubt it was quite legal, but rather than push the issue Mrs. Newk just took her services elsewhere. He probably wouldn't have gotten away with it, but he was a likable guy, and most of his employees were family members.
I wonder how many workers in Wyoming would be affected by an increase in the minimum wage limits. It certainly wouldn't affect Gillette much. My wife works at a sandwich shop, and they start high school kids at $9.50 or more. That's FAR from enough to "support a family," however!
When I was offered my first job after high school, the owner said he'd start me at $1.15/hour, but, he said, he'd raise me to $1.25 in two weeks, because the minimum wage was being increased to that in two weeks. LOL I took the job and worked enough overtime to earn $80 per week, so he gave me a "promotion" with a weekly salary of $75. That guy knew how to pinch pennies!
Last edited by WyoNewk; 01-28-2014 at 09:08 AM..
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