Considering Wyoming (Cheyenne, Casper, Sheridan: mineral rights, for sale, real estate)
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Hi everyone! Been lurking on the Wyo CD site and decided it was time to ask some questions. I'm a fast typer and prone to give LOTS of facts, so I apologize in advance for the length of the post.
The husband and I are about to close escrow on the sale of our house on the Central Coast of CA. This is an incredibly beautiful place to live with amazing (mild) weather, although not as warm and sunny as, say, Santa Barbara or Santa Monica. That's ok, because we have zero bugs here and I like that! Our favorite part of living here is the multitude of outdoor activities: hiking, biking, kayaking in the local bay/ocean/lakes, and beach walking. It's small town for CA - about 8,000 people, with other "small" towns nearby, but nothing "big" for over 90 miles. We LOVE small towns since we are not into shopping, movies, and other so-called entertainment that others find so necessary. We also despise the traffic jams that are so prevalent in Southern California and the California Bay Area.
So, why on earth are we moving? In case you haven't heard, CA is about to go bankrupt and is already overrun by gangs and drugs, as well as poor liberals with a sense of entitlement, and rich liberals who control our government and make it impossible for business owners and anyone with conservative values to live in peace. We don't mind that they have different opinions than we do; we DO mind that they are passing crazy laws that make us criminals (basically) for holding the opinions and values that we do. Our kids are fleeing the state as well - kidnapping our grandkids and taking them to Dallas as soon as their house sells. Wahhh!
Ok, 'nuf about that. We have been researching places to live, and as much as we'd like to be near the kids and grandkids, Dallas is not for us. Wyo is currently at the top of the list. As soon as our escrow closes (supposedly by March 9), we are booking tickets and planning to spend about ten days there to see if we can stand the winter weather - been reading lots about that on your Wyo threads. If that's a go, we will be back in summer or fall to do some serious house-hunting.
We've been researching various Wyo areas on CityData. We've also checked out real estate values on all the various sites. Those are our two priorities, with access to medical care being a distant third. Honestly, we'd probably settle in the town that has a church that seems to be the right fit for us, so yes, that is a factor, too, but one we can't really know till we are there.
We aren't anti-social - actually the opposite - but just aren't into keeping up with the Joneses or anything like that. We don't even have cable TV because the stuff on there is disgusting and we can get our news for free on the Internet or radio, thank you. I do have a smart phone for work, but only pay for the cheapest unlimited service at $45/month - there is no WAY I am going to pay $100/mo for an iPhone service contract!
Jobs are not an issue, as I will take mine with me and work remotely, and will keep my family medical benefits with that. Husband is currently a self-employed contractor of 35 years with a great book of business and all the tools. He will close the business and bring the tools with him, but he won't need to bring in cash income after the move. He'd be happy working at the local hardware store for minimum wage if that were available, or doing the odd contracting project. His primary goal is to invest his time on the property we would buy, raising of some chickens/goats/etc., and growing some food. He knows what's involved with that and isn't naive about the amount of work it takes. He's also got all the wilderness survival skills and is looking forward to some hunting, fishing, etc. as a way to supplement our food supply, as well. On weekends, we will be out hiking, snow-shoeing, etc., assuming weather permits.
So, here are the questions:
1. We are considering Sheridan, Story, and Buffalo as our top candidates right now, mostly for milder weather and also because properties there are in our price range - what you call expensive is cheap compared to where we live now! Anyway, can you compare these three areas for us as far as wind, amount of snow, and amount of sun during winter? Lots of conflicting data from various responders on other posts, and then City Data doesn't match up with any of it, either!
2. Story appeals to us a bit because it's greener. But how often during an average winter will the weather conditions prevent us from driving to Buffalo or to Sheridan? We ask because from what I read, we'd need to go to one of those towns for grocery shopping and gasoline, unless we want to pay convenience store prices. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't care since we understand that all three places sometimes get closed in due to weather conditions.
3. What kinds of food could we expect to grow in the climate around those three areas? Root vegetables? Berries or other fruits/veggies if we did some cold frames or a greenhouse?
4. How well do animals such as chickens and goats fare there? Does the extreme cold limit the amount of eggs or milk they produce during winter?
5. How is the water quality as it relates to growing food or watering animals? Any excess minerals or other factors that affect crops and livestock?
6. Husband grew up owning horses on acreage, and would like to have a couple for us to ride. Are any of those towns more horse-friendly than others? For instance, I see some property listed for sale in Story that is a couple of acres, but don't know if those places have covenants against horses - or chickens for that matter. Any info to share about that?
Other random thoughts about these three areas are welcome. Thanks in advance for your insights - much appreciated!
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1. We are considering Sheridan, Story, and Buffalo as our top candidates right now, mostly for milder weather and also because properties there are in our price range - what you call expensive is cheap compared to where we live now! Anyway, can you compare these three areas for us as far as wind, amount of snow, and amount of sun during winter? Lots of conflicting data from various responders on other posts, and then City Data doesn't match up with any of it, either!
The climate range for all 3 is essentially identical. Winters can range from brutal to comparatively mild; for the most part, the current winter has been quite mild so far.
2. Story appeals to us a bit because it's greener. But how often during an average winter will the weather conditions prevent us from driving to Buffalo or to Sheridan? We ask because from what I read, we'd need to go to one of those towns for grocery shopping and gasoline, unless we want to pay convenience store prices. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't care since we understand that all three places sometimes get closed in due to weather conditions.
In an "average winter", your ability to readily get around will typically be limited to relatively short periods of time when the storm fronts pass through. With a little bit of prudent planning for some time of self-reliance; ie, a stocked refrigerator and freezer(s), the time(s) when you are staying at home due to weather conditions will be a fairly minor, if any, inconvenience. Prep and attitude are key factors well within your control. IMO, Story is no "greener" than Buffalo, especially on the West side of Buffalo heading into the mountain range ... both locales are very appealing areas.
3. What kinds of food could we expect to grow in the climate around those three areas? Root vegetables? Berries or other fruits/veggies if we did some cold frames or a greenhouse?
Tunnel greenhouse structures highly recommended to allow you to control and protect the growing environment. Take a look at the typical structures on the FarmTek website, although my experience has been that the stock structures may be a little lightly built for the wind gusts that come through Wyoming; I've used their kits for the basic structure and cover but built up reinforced end walls. With such a structure, you can grow a large variety garden, including the standard items and many herbs. We do, on the scale of providing for ourselves and enjoying fresh and home canned or frozen produce through a year ... and having enough extra fresh stuff to sell at a Farmer's Market. There'd be a sizable interest in fresh berries, but we haven't had much success growing them here in SE Wyoming. Your local county extension office will have more localized advice re soil and growing conditions.
4. How well do animals such as chickens and goats fare there? Does the extreme cold limit the amount of eggs or milk they produce during winter?
A pretty good locale for your small farming ops. Laying chickens, protected in a barn/coop structure, will do well; egg laying rates are dependent upon the length of daylight, not the temps. Goats fare well; look at Nubians for milkers and Boers for meat. There's other breeds, of course, that can do well but we've had exceptionally good results with these two. Plan on sturdy fences for the Boers. Shelters are needed, but they don't need to be elaborate; we've spoiled ours with 3-sided shelters that have an elongated end on one side so that the goats can get completely out of the wind/weather exposure in the "cave" area. A barn structure also works, but it's purpose is more comfort for us to shelter the goats and feed them, or keep them in for kidding, then it's needed for the livestock.
5. How is the water quality as it relates to growing food or watering animals? Any excess minerals or other factors that affect crops and livestock?
Water is always a big concern in Wyoming. Beyond the use of your domestic water supply, which may be a well of limited productivity (max 25 gal/min per permit, but often limited to much less due to well production), you may need to consider efficient means of water delivery to your garden. We've settled on drip irrigation systems on timers, mostly using drip tape. I've built a number of greenhouse width PVC manifolds with multiple outlets/valves, so that we can vary the spacing of where the tubes go each growing season, or outdoor manifolds 100' wide with outlets on 8" or 12" centers. This allows flexibility for the row spacing, as we rotate our vege's throughout the greenhouse and garden areas each year. Always good to do a water quality check for a given water source, as there are minerals/hard water issues in the area ... as well as potential contaminants due to many factors. Test to be sure; to me, this is an important consideration in the purchase of a property in Wyoming and a deal-breaker if the quantity/quality isn't up to my requirements. Be aware that irrigation water beyond your domestic source may not necessarily be available, so be sure of what water rights (and functional availability) you are buying with a piece of land. The limit for use outside the house on a domestic well is 1 acre for landscaping/gardens. Livestock waterers for a couple of horses can be supplied from this source, too.
6. Husband grew up owning horses on acreage, and would like to have a couple for us to ride. Are any of those towns more horse-friendly than others? For instance, I see some property listed for sale in Story that is a couple of acres, but don't know if those places have covenants against horses - or chickens for that matter. Any info to share about that?
You're looking at horse country in this region. Other than a subdivision HOA CC&R's limitation or municipal zoning area restriction, you'll find the area to be very horse friendly, esp on acreage. When looking at only a couple of acres, you'll need to verify the CC&R's ... oft times, they limit the number of livestock per parcel/acreage. But with a goal of a couple of horses and some goats, you'll rarely find those to be an obstacle. Be aware that you'll be bringing in all of the feed and hay for livestock on a couple of acres; two horses will have what's available grazed down to bare dirt in almost no time. I've seen very few CC&R's that would inhibit a modest poultry flock for personal consumption but may be a limiting factor if you're thinking about commercial production on a larger scale.
Other random thoughts about these three areas are welcome. Thanks in advance for your insights - much appreciated!
IMO, one of the most gorgeous areas of Wyoming to settle to. Lots of access to outdoor recreation, lots of places to ride your horses and explore. If you've got the budget, I wouldn't look at anything less than 40 acres, but even that is a minimal size parcel ... look around for a 1/4 section (or larger) for a bit more elbow room, with greater possibilities for livestock and room to ride on your own place.
I have lived in the area you are asking about, for a good number of years.
Of the three, Story is going to be your most expensive. Most places in Story and around Story are acerages, not just lots. 2-3 acres up to 10-15. For what you pay in Story, you could almost double your land in Buffalo or Sheridan.
Roads between Story and Sheridan (normally where you would shop) are well maintained and during the winter, only shut down for a few hours at a time until the plows catch up.
Story is a lot greener than either Sheridan or Buffalo. The shape of the mountains kind of channel more snow into that area. If you look at road reports, "Piney Creek" is always a concern on the Interstate. That is a result of what I am talking about. Snow sits on the ground a lot longer in Story, allowing the melt to soak in instead of run off. The entire Story area is a bunch of small spreader creeks, or streams. Lots of springs in the area and almost every home there has a little creek running through their place. Doesn't mean you can use the water for livestock though.
Chickens and goats need to be well protected in the Story area as there is a minor bear problem. A couple of idiots in the story area, several years ago, thought it was a really good idea to feed the deer, the raccoons, and such so that wildlife was always around. Then the bears started hanging around and the people freaked out, wanting fish and game to remove the bears, get them out of there. Well, just like the deer, the bears are going to go where the food is. By the way, those folks are still feeding the deer. They swear up and down they are not, but on any given day you can drive by and see salt blocks in their yards. They'll tell you they put the salt blocks out for the squirrels and not the deer. They still don't get it. hahaha
Story is a nice little area. Not sure what they are getting for output from their wells around Story, but I have never heard of anybody having a problem with water. Around Sheridan or Buffalo, there are some places that haul drinking water and always will. Not the case in Story.
Most of the area's around Sheridan are covered by HOA's and raising goats is not going to happen. If you get further North of Sheridan, there are less HOA's to be concerned with. Not sure about the Buffalo area.
If you watch the listings for the area, and are open to what is for sale, you can really find some gems. A year ago we had somebody saying you can't touch anything for less than $200k. I looked and in 10 minutes found 5 listings for under $200K and one of them was for 80 acres, with old house, 2 wells, irrigation rights, and still had the mineral rights. It was $160K. Granted, the house was about 1910 version, but still tight and very livable. To buy something like that and then live in the house while you are building, would be ideal for most folks. Even divide it into 2 parcels of 40 acres and use the money to build with.
Grass in Wyoming is pretty sparse. I was once told that the only grass in Wyoming, was found on post cards, everywhere else was sagebrush. They weren't far off. With a couple horses, in this area with 40 acres, you'd still be feeding almost year round.
I don't use a greenhouse so can't tell you what that can do for you. I do grow the basics, peppers, tomatos, cucumbers, etc.. and have pretty good luck.
Thanks to both of you for that great info! That's just the kind of stuff we need to take into consideration.
Couple more questions occurred to me after I signed off last night:
1. How is the cell phone coverage in each area? What providers tend to have the best coverage? I have to imagine with the mountains near Story that there are some dead spots - if so, how big of a problem is this?
2. Internet service providers - are we looking at satellite, DSL, cable? Is it mostly reliable, or are there significant down times?
I ask because both of those services are crucial to being able to work remotely and thus maintain my current job (or some scaled-down version thereof).
Thanks to both of you for that great info! That's just the kind of stuff we need to take into consideration.
Couple more questions occurred to me after I signed off last night:
1. How is the cell phone coverage in each area? What providers tend to have the best coverage? I have to imagine with the mountains near Story that there are some dead spots - if so, how big of a problem is this?
Verizon is probably the best national provider in the area for mobile reception. Union Wireless may also meet your requirements.
2. Internet service providers - are we looking at satellite, DSL, cable? Is it mostly reliable, or are there significant down times?
Depends upon where you locate. But don't count on 100% uptime in the area due to weather and local conditions. I've seen days around almost all of WY outside of the larger municipalities that were without service.
I ask because both of those services are crucial to being able to work remotely and thus maintain my current job (or some scaled-down version thereof).
Thanks again!
Alison
You may find that multiple communications services will be the answer for uptime, even if some access is slower than others, especially for uploads. I rely upon RT Communications (because they are the only service available to my ranch, having bought up several of the former AT&T service areas), and use 3G devices for the balance through Verizon.
Thanks, Sunsprit! when you say larger municipalities, would you include Sheridan or Buffalo in that category? Or are you talking only towns the size of Casper or even Cheyenne?
Just thought of some more questions for you, Sunsprit: given the low output of the wells, do you have a water holding tank on your property? Is that allowed?
And another general question for anyone:
How feasible is it to invest in alternative energy sources there, such as solar or wind power?
Does the answer differ depending on whether you are using it to power a well or to heat a house? I can see where keeping solar panels on the roof or even on the ground might be a problem with the wind and snow, but perhaps a small windmill would be feasible?
We are used to high rates here in CA, although our usage here would obviously be lower than it would have to be through a Wyoming winter. But we'd love to be less dependent on outside sources if possible. Interior smoke from wood or coal is a little tough on me, unfortunately.
Thanks, Sunsprit! when you say larger municipalities, would you include Sheridan or Buffalo in that category? Or are you talking only towns the size of Casper or even Cheyenne?
All of the above would qualify as "larger muni" areas, with typically better 'net service capabilities. But even at that, I've seen Cheyenne have no service for a couple of days due to weather related failures of the system.
Just thought of some more questions for you, Sunsprit: given the low output of the wells, do you have a water holding tank on your property? Is that allowed?
Storage tanks/cisterns are allowed. Many properties require them for a functional domestic water delivery due to either a very low flow well delivery or the need to haul water in because they have no on-property supply.
Water law, permitting, rights, availability here is very different than the rest of the USA, especially compared to riparian areas of the country. All of the water here is owned by the state, and permits are issued by the state engineer's office for domestic or other uses. Some subdivisions will have a community water system or a municipal provider, some will have no source and you're on your own for domestic supply. Water rights are allocated to specific properties; ie, if you have a functional delivery permitted well on your property, you may not sell, transfer, asign, or give away water to any other use (including a neighbor whose property doesn't have good water supply). You either use water within the scope of your permit or you leave it in the state's possession for them to determine who may also use it in due course.
What's significant here is that in much of Wyoming, just because a neighbor has a functional well, doesn't mean that on your property you will have a similar (if any) production. For example, within the area where I live, domestic wells produce anywhere from the maximum 25 GPM to as few as 0.2 gals/minute. The folk with the very limited production must pump many hours to fulfill their demand when it's time to bathe, wash clothes, or use their sanitary systems. Irrigating a small garden can be problematic for them. As EH points out, there are places around Sheridan where a well isn't a viable option, and hauling domestic water in is normal. That's not an unusual situation in other places around the state.
You need to be very careful about your water source and supply. Some places will have an abundance, some won't. Due diligence is an absolute necessity. Do not take anything about your water source and supply for granted, and especially do not rely solely upon the representations of a seller or their broker; get your own well production and quality tests performed to be sure of what you may be buying.
This concern even extends to municipal water systems ... where the drought situation across Wyoming in recent times has stressed municipal water systems to where some towns ran out of water (or nearly so), even with rationing/restrictions upon it's use.
Recognize, too, that seeing surface water on a property does not confer a water right to use it at that location. It's not uncommon for the water right holders to be downstream from your property and all you can do is look at the water as it goes past your place. Similarly, irrigation water delivery across your land only indicates an easement for it's conveyance, not a water use right.
And another general question for anyone:
How feasible is it to invest in alternative energy sources there, such as solar or wind power?
You need to look at a Wind Energy Density chart to identify the most likely areas of Wyoming for wind power generation. Site studies are advisable once a location is picked out; you can generally arrange for a tower and small recording generator to be located on a place and capture the data re winds at the area. There may be CC&R's or regs that will restrict the indescrimate locating of wind power units on a property ... due to visual or noise pollution issues. If you're really considering going off-grid or independent, a typical farm house/barns/outbuildings will need about 18 KW production, either from wind or
Solar.
There's a few companies that specialize in building a unitized trailer mounted wind/solar/battery storage/charge controller system. Haul it into your site, set it up, and let 'er run. Last time I checked, an 18 KW rig was about $28,000. It'd take a long time for a payback on such a unit if you have grid power available at 10-12 cents per KWH. The power companies must purchase your surplus power, but there's a meter fee for the two-way power meter and they only pay about 2 cents per KWH. Our local power company doesn't cut a monthly check, they keep track for a year and send you a check for what they may owe you.
I've got some neighbors with wind generators on their lands and I've seen more damage to the units that are underdesigned for the strong wind gusts around here than the units could possibly ever offset in power generation. Solar panels were installed in some locations when there were fed grant monies and tax advantages to do so, but in the years since, they all seem to have fallen into disrepair ... especially the solar hot water systems.
Currently, the only rationale that I see that's feasible for independent power generation is to be in a remote location where grid connectivity is prohibitively expensive. I've been in some seasonal line shacks where it made sense, but these are rare examples. Most of the ones I've been in use wood and propane for their heating, cooking, lighting, refrigeration and water pumping, and it's convenient and cost effective given the appliances to accomplish all the comforts of home.
Does the answer differ depending on whether you are using it to power a well or to heat a house? I can see where keeping solar panels on the roof or even on the ground might be a problem with the wind and snow, but perhaps a small windmill would be feasible?
You'll not power a house with refrigeration and domestic water well production on a small wind generator, let alone keeping livestock waterers frost free and clear of ice. I've done some calculations with neighbors on typical power needs, and it seems to be consistent that all need around 18KW production and sizable energy storage capacity for the nights when the wind doesn't blow. With a typical deep well, you'll need to deliver 220V Single Phase power in the 10-20 amp range plus start-up surge power. Think about your clothes dryer in the winter months, there's another 20 amp 220V draw. An electric range would require similar energy. Your refrigeration comes either from a 15 amp 110v circuit or you could use a propane powered refrigerator/freezer to minimize that requirement. We still haven't addressed domestic heating/cooling power requirements ...
The bottom line is that I've watched many well intentioned and capable folk around this state try to keep all the amenities of life supplied with wind and solar, and nobody seems to be accomplishing it without a huge expense that has no forseeable payback.
Not saying it can't be done, but that it has so far proven to be uneconomic for all the ingenuity and product advances that have shown up here so far.
We are used to high rates here in CA, although our usage here would obviously be lower than it would have to be through a Wyoming winter. But we'd love to be less dependent on outside sources if possible. Interior smoke from wood or coal is a little tough on me, unfortunately.
There are alternatives to this problem; ie, an outside the house boiler unit fired by wood or coal. Do a little research online about these units; they look like a shed close by the house, but detached from the house except for the buried connecting pipes. Typically, they are fueled once every 24 hours and have a long burn time to supply HWBB heat to a house and can be the primary heating source for a house, supplying comfort heating and a domestic hot water heater exchange coil.
Depending upon how sensitive you are to the smoke products, there are a lot of high quality sealed firebox interior units on the market today which may not be a problem for you. The top end ones use an exterior air supply and an airtight firebox which is vented out a chimney stack, so there's no interior airflow to supply the combustion process. The only time the firebox is opened is when fuel is being added or for ash removal. Consider, too, that wood pellet stoves are effective and efficient, and they've eliminated the firebox opening/closing routine. Keep in mind that none of these heating sources are totally maintenance free in the sense that a natural gas or propane fired unit can be ... you're looking at ash removal, flue cleaning, handling the fuel, etc. It's a daily set of chores along with some infrequent, but necessary, major chores to keep properly functioning.
don't forget domestic hot water heating, too, if you are relying upon solar/wind. This is a big consumer of energy in your household, and running it off of solar/wind power is gonna' take a lot of energy, especially if you use an on-demand water heater; it's gonna' take a big inverter to get battery power to cover the load. A tank heater will take more energy, but delivered at a lower rate than the on-demand unit.
Wow, that depth of info was beyond my expectations for this site... many, many thanks for what would have taken us days to dig out from a multitude of other sources.
RE: solar power in Wyoming, what a contrast to CA, where for $25k or so, one can purchase a solar system that will power the average 1500sf 3bed/2ba house, including HVAC, hot water, lighting, laundry machines, fridge, and plugging in the electric car at night. Guess we will investigate the other options you mentioned for the time being. The concern is that those power sources may be comparatively cheap at the moment, but the likelihood of exponential increases in the coming years seems quite high to us.
Well, we've still got lots of work ahead of us before we buy any property or load up the UHaul. Again, many thanks for all your time and expertise. Let me know if you ever have questions about CA's central coast area
Blessings,
Alison
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