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It all starts with this...'Leave it to Beaver'....what do you see in that opening intro?...you see order, you see family, you see structure, you see stability...
The basis of what built this country, and set it apart from many others...
I guess you could say I'm a recruiter for American idealism. For preserving that which made America a place of envy for many around the world...
A America which has or had the largest middle class population in the history of the planet...a America where dreams could be fulfilled...an America of Law and order....I'm a recruiter for all that...
And I think service in the military provides a great basis for all of the above...for without structure and compliance and unity...the country, any country, will fall apart...
For without shared vision and goals, the country, any country will fall apart...
And again...I think the military is a great basis for all of that...
I miss the days of the 'Duke'...when it was ok to be Patriotic...when we as a nation felt like a true family...inspite our differences, I sometimes feel we were closer as a nation back then, than we are now...
I grew up admiring men like John Wayne...and watching all those other WW2 films...as a kid, it gave me a since of safety of knowing that we were 'all together'...knowing that the 'men' would take care of us...
And I would like to preserve that...and again..I feel the military is a great basis for that.
When I look out into society now...what I see is everyone scattering...doing their own thing...and drifting apart...
I believe in a strong middle class, working familiies, happy homes...good jobs, summer vacations...
And I think the military plays a large role in that...it was the GI bill and the VA loans that allowed a lot of the vets to get homes after WW2...
I love the military for that...
When I watch those old WW2 films...and see men flying in those old B-52 bombers...at 50,000 ft...freezing to death...so focused on the mission...so selflishly willing to give of their lives....
It's that kind of dicipline and structure that allowed America to prosper so....
Without that, we will decintigrate....
So ye, I guess I'm a recruiter of American idealism...
And I think the military is a basis for all of that...
I'm not saying I propigate war, cause I don't...what I do propigate is order, structure and unity...a sense of family...a sense of we're all in this together.
And the military teaches you all of that...and once out...those values learned in the service carry over into real life and it's those values that help keep America strong...
To be continued....
You know, the thought of joining the military crossed my mind. . .
T and S, I usually agree with your posts, but I strongly disagree here. Your post describes exactly why I could never join the military. I'm a left-leaning free-spirited person, so that 1950s jingoistc conservative "order, structure, discipline, family, country" thing doesn't sit well with me. I admire those who serve, but I like having the freedom to question my government's actions and refuse to take part in unethical wars. Also, the "Leave it to Beaver" mentality seems good on the surface, but it was bad for those who look like you and me, or anyone who was different from the societal norm. Your ideal America never existed. People got discriminated against, beaten and even killed for being different. I'm happy it's 2011 where people can look, think and act differently without fear of reprisal.
You know, the thought of joining the military crossed my mind. . .
T and S, I usually agree with your posts, but I strongly disagree here. Your post describes exactly why I could never join the military. I'm a left-leaning free-spirited person, so that 1950s jingoistc conservative "order, structure, discipline, family, country" thing doesn't sit well with me. I admire those who serve, but I like having the freedom to question my government's actions and refuse to take part in unethical wars. Also, the "Leave it to Beaver" mentality seems good on the surface, but it was bad for those who look like you and me, or anyone who was different from the societal norm. Your ideal America never existed. People got discriminated against, beaten and even killed for being different. I'm happy it's 2011 where people can look, think and act differently without fear of reprisal.
Completely true. Though, even in 2011 there's still some fear for those who are homosexual and those who are atheist. There was actually a study released recently claiming that atheists were the most hated in the U.S. (even more than homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, jews, muslims, etc.): http://www.soc.umn.edu/~hartmann/fil...he%20other.pdf
You know, the thought of joining the military crossed my mind. . .
T and S, I usually agree with your posts, but I strongly disagree here. Your post describes exactly why I could never join the military. I'm a left-leaning free-spirited person, so that 1950s jingoistc conservative "order, structure, discipline, family, country" thing doesn't sit well with me. I admire those who serve, but I like having the freedom to question my government's actions and refuse to take part in unethical wars. Also, the "Leave it to Beaver" mentality seems good on the surface, but it was bad for those who look like you and me, or anyone who was different from the societal norm. Your ideal America never existed. People got discriminated against, beaten and even killed for being different. I'm happy it's 2011 where people can look, think and act differently without fear of reprisal.
The "Leave it to Beaver' role doesn't or didn't work for me??
That's news to me...
Cause those were the best years of my life, when I was younger, lived in a nice safe 'Leave it to Beaver' world, was invited over to spend the night at Eddie Haskal types of homes and others I grew up with...
I loved it...that model can and does work for anyone who wants it to...
Color has nothing to do with it, attitude and possibly belief system and or education does...
You can be black, white or mexican American, and live the 'Leave it to Beaver' model...which was built on sound family value principles...
I don't believe for a minute, that that's only obtainable to for or by 'European American' families..
I have drifted since those days...not due to my color, but rather do to other factors that could effect anyone...poor decision making being one of those.
The funny thing is...no white person has ever told me I couldn't live the 'Leave it to Beaver' life...
It's always been other minorities who are so quick to remind me of 'my place' in 'This society'...
It starts with belief in self, first and foremost...and what your capable of...
(but thank you for reading my other posts and agreeing with most of them...I've kind of toned it down as of lately...and try to avoid negitave threads...you just end up getting all worked up for nothing...)
Anyways...take care...
Last edited by Time and Space; 02-10-2011 at 12:41 PM..
The military "benefits" are really not that good. The healthcare system is based on Canada, but even worse. You pretty much get more Motrin and get pushed out the door. If you are sick, prepared to hear it from your chain of command, and you better be REALLY sick, because if your not, they will make you jump through hoops. There are no sick days in the military, so you need extreme documented proof.
You are on call 24 hours a day. So if some a$$hole commander feels like having a meeting on your day off, you are expected to come in uniform. If you are single and living in the dorms, they will make you do extra crap like pull weeds and plant flowers, even if its in the middle of the day, and you work night shift. So you will get married way too young, because the policies encourage that. Forget about being able to see your kid's functions, you will undoubtedly have to stay late, or come in early, or go to the 13 briefing about drinking and driving. Or you will be doing mandatory PT with some 19 year old who thinks everyone should be a marathon runner. Most of the time you are on 12 hour shifts, and lets not forgot the mandatory trips to the middle east every year and a half, your family, wife and kids will love those. Also yes, EVERYONE goes to Iraq, A-stan, or wherever, there is no getting out of it.
To me this is totally not worth maybe 1400 a month if you are lucky.
This guy is right on and reading his post tells me he served. I gave ten years. I joined as an enlisted Soldier in late 2002. Got out in 2013. I was national guard and the last four years I was active duty. I also became an officer through ROTC. I also received a law degree while on the national guard. So I was an artillery officer and a Judge Advocate Generas Corps officer. So I've seen many, many sides of the Army- the guard/reserve side, the lower enlisted side, young officer side and experienced higher educated officer side who worked with and briefed Generals at fort bliss after it's total realignment to the 1st armored division. So I've also been to briefings at the highest level of FORSCOM and have heard the true Army leaders feelings about personnel.
I'm not trying to be mean but there is so much ignorance about the Army. The movies, yellow ribbons, our country's obsession with the military, etc- all tend to paint a picture of the Army that doesn't exist. Truth is, the Army is contracting and is looking for any and all ways to actually get rid of whomever they can. The wars are done or winding down and money has largely been cut off whereas right after 911 the services enjoyed unprecedented cash and funding of all sorts: most of it squandered of course.
The guy above is right. When I was last in active duty JAG about the only good thing I experienced was getting salary and bah like clockwork. PT everyday while 19 year olds who have no life experience screaming at you to run. Sounds like I'm complaining about basic army stuff? No- I routinely scored above a 300 on most of my PT tests. But- now the army is pushing everyone until they're injured. It just is absurd. Then once you're injured that's the army's ticket to kick you out. I heard FORSCOM generals tell their underlings to kick out soldiers if they have medical problems. In other words, don't give them time to recover- that cost money. Instead, kick em out and get some more privates in. I hear guys in the military say, "don't worry, the Arny invested so much in you!" Well, maybe the amorphous Army did, but the officers who kick people out do not.
In today's Army you'll be in garrison life a lot until the next war. A-Stan is almost over-Iraq is dead. So most soldiers are useless. Be prepared for constant field training exercises. Garrison life is getting worse and worse. Purposefully so. And you'll never get out of it, even in what u consider exceptional circumstances.
Medical care in the Army deserves some attention as it's critical and you'll definitely need treatment and likely will get injured or sick in a minimum 4 year active duty commitment. To sum it up; usually you'll be treated poorly. Medical care can be very poor. It is quite common to hear soldiers and veterans lament about how they had to have a surgery twice or even three times due to incompetence. To be fair, medical care does vary based on where you're stationed. I did the bulk of my active time at Fort Bliss 2009-2013 before I got out. I had a total of 7 primary care providers. When I first arrived I saw an actual medical doctor. Then 1st Armored Division moved from Germany to Fort Bliss, Texas and though they built nice buildings in the desert in El Paso, they didn't have the appropriate amount of doctors. And so the doctors they did have- both officers and civilian hires- could treat you as they pleased with impunity. It was commonplace to show up at a hard won medical appointment only to be told the doctor called off and since they were gold to the Army- nothing happened. But God help you if you missed an appointment- even if it was your command's idiocy that caused your lateness. You'd be dressed down by a battalion commander and reprimanded.
Moreover, As I said, I went through scores of primary care providers. All with different approaches and treatments. But when they were randomly reassigned- which was all the time as the Army never cares about a Soldiers medical care,-I'd get a new one. Mostly I had PAs as primary providers who were often woefully inexperienced to handle most chronic medical problems. But again, the Army will not care. And I received this poor care as a JAG officer. Think about what you'll receive as a lower enlisted Soldier. In fact, I saw Army units kick guys out for misconduct simply because they were mad at them for receiving care for a chronic issue. The unit would then keep track of every little screw up and then, all at once, try to admin separate them. I saw this all the time as a JAG officer. Believe me when I tell you because it was my job to defend these poor guys in the face of a unit with the full backing of the commanding generals policies to kick people out for anything and the resources to do so. So...if you go in the Army and you think you'll have any or do have any chronic medical problem then be prepared for misery until you're finally kicked out. So...a lot of you reading this are older and thinking about going in. You'll need medical care. But guess what? A bunch of young soldiers will mock you. You'll likely have a younger commander or enlisted squad leader, 1st sgt, top, whatever. And they WILL NOT UNDERSTAND YOU NEED MEDICAL CARE TO DO WELL. No, they will always view you needing medical care as a sign that you are trying to get out of PT or training. And that sucks. The guy above is right- if you're just sick in the morning, you should plan to literally throw up in front of your 1SGT, otherwise the assumption will be you're, what's called a "malingerer" someone trying to skirt PT or training. This is almost ALWAYS THE CASE and will make your life miserable.
Next-training. Be prepared for long misery most of the time. A guy on this post said he loves the Army because they train you in 1/3 the time a civilian would. I don't know where he served but my ten years and most guys I know would say the complete opposite. Most of training is waiting for the hundred other soldiers to do a basic task you did or are waiting to do. Army training is 90% waiting and 10% actually doing. Example? Airborne school. I have a civilian parachuting license. I did three free fall skydives in my first day at an airport doing the US Parachuting association handbook. It was safe, fun and effective. However, you'll spend three weeks in training to complete a handful of basic parachute drops from a static line. Airborne school, like many Army schools, are miserae because of very, very, very long wait times. It is common to wait 10 plus hours to do a basic task in training. Be prepared for a constant barrage of bad decisions, head scratchers, missed opportunties, leaders who will dumbfound you with their decisions that dramatically affect your life. And if your miserable? Well, too bad. Because it seems that when you're miserable in the Army, that's when they won't let you out unless it's with a bad discharge. Think I'm exaggerating? Again, every Tuesday and Thursday I would see scores of soldiers who needed a lawyer either for an article 15, a sep board, a summary courts martial, counsel on their impending medical separation where the army was trying to screw them with no medical board and likely small medical pension after they're out. Pure misery I saw. And they put on a front to everyone in the army and even their families. But not to me, their lawyer. I saw and heard their true feelings. And it was misery.
There are many other reasons the Army is not what you think. You think you'll be happy in a "comfy desk job" as so many of you think. The Army tends to be nice to women though. Unless the female soldier has a female boss. Then more misery as females usually hate each other. But if the female has a male boss, usually she gets treated better than her male peers as male supervisors are terrified of a sexual harrasment claim and they tend to treat women like little pieces of glass or they sexually desire them and do nice things in hopes of flirtation or more though there is strict rules against what the army calls fraternization the male soldier boss still will act with his penis and be overly nice to women. Some will be cruel. Few will be normal and reasonable is the point.. This results in a lot of inequity in the Army. Be prepared for racist black soldiers who can get away with blatant racism. Be prepared for Hispanic soldiers who talk in Spanish behind your back though that's not allowed and you not being able to do anything about it.
Be prepared to be investigated at the drop of a hat as that's common and are called AR-15s which is the main "how to investigate" regulation for commands. These will destroy you and even if cleared or vindicated by the investigation (which is rare) it will still really hurt your career and a black cloud will always follow you. I saw these all the time as a Tom to humiliate and disparage Soldiers and Officers who command hated. Be prepared to do things that will never help or prepare you for a successful civilian job as the Army doesn't want that. The Army really wants you totally beholden to it for money, health care, insurance, child care- everything. So that they can totally control you and fill you with fear about being kicked out for anything. As a result of not being trained for a civilian job, you will lose what economists call "opportunity costs". In other words, your civilian job prospects will diminish the longer your in the Army as you aren't being trained properly and your physically deteriorating and possibly psychologically either through combat or pure psychological misery. Again, as an officer who heard the truth from soldiers. This is what I saw and heard all the time. Not the patriotic drivel the media, movies, TV shows and Army commercials would have you believe. Every commander is extremely trigger happy on prosecutions and feel they get a bad ass reputation by prosecuting anyone for anything even if unsubstantiated. Great thing about Army justice is there is no need for a grand jury indictments. No, only the pen stroke of a legally ignorant general and a sole officer who is again, an officer from any branch, who decides if there's probable cause to prosecute- which there "always" is.
In other words, these days the Army literally has a "ZERO DEFECT" mentality. If you've ever struggled with booze or drugs AVOID THE ARMY AND ALL SERVICES. Sure, basic may be a good "physical test" and the graduation may make people proud of you who otherwise never really were or are. But guess what? You still have at least 4 more years to go and some guys often sign up for 6 YEARS ACTIVE DUTY! And they have no idea what kind of life it is! Who does that?? Desperate 18, 19, 20, 21 hear olds who often have two or more kids with no prospects. They often really regret their decisions as there is no good way out if there miserable.
I'll wrap it up. I've said enough. There's a lot more and I sound anti-Army. I'm not. I'm just one of the few who believes in total transperancy and a view from all sides. Many succeed but lately? More and more are miserable. By the way- the unemployment rate for recently separated veterans is 9.5%. That is outright awful and a disgrace. All these people and companies who wear yellow ribbons and say they support the troops DO NOT! If they did, you'd see a much, much more concentrated effort to hire, recruit, and educate these veterans who suffered for this county. It's despicable.
Good luck to all of you- BUT MAKE SURE YOU DISCERN YOUR DECISION WITH EYES AND MIND WIDE OPEN GOING IN!
However, the military is almost never going to be the "solution" for most people's problems. If you join the military and you take (or are given) a job for which there are no civilian counterparts, you'll be in the exact same position (or worse) when you eventually transition out of the service.
It's almost always better to work on your weaknesses before you join the military or instead of joining, rather than joining and hoping that thing will somehow get "better" on their own.
However, the military is almost never going to be the "solution" for most people's problems. If you join the military and you take (or are given) a job for which there are no civilian counterparts, you'll be in the exact same position (or worse) when you eventually transition out of the service.
It's almost always better to work on your weaknesses before you join the military or instead of joining, rather than joining and hoping that thing will somehow get "better" on their own.
Of course not, but it is a typical belief that people have of the military. They see it as character building. Look at how military reform schools were portrayed for sitcoms over the years. Many people have that notion still in their head that rather than Gomer Pile shooting the poor drill Sargent in the head, they eventually put on their big boy pants with all the racial and sexual slurs they hear in boot camp.
It was more common during the hard times about 30 years ago when the military was larger. Not so much these days.
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This guy clearly served in the military....
