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That hasn't been true since the Clinton White House. Let it go already. Arizona is bringing in a one year maximum. Let it go already. But be assured. The answer is not to accept that $7.50 or even $9.00/hr is fair compensation for any work done in as high maintenance a country as America. A waiter in NYC makes 1/2 minimum wage plus tips. A waiter in Stutgart makes minimum wage ($20/hr plus tips). The American waiter has to pay for his own healthcare, that could easily be equal to his take home pay and more. The waiter in Stutgart has his healthcare paid out of his taxes. Taxes that are not any higher than what the waiter in NYC pays.
You want wages to go up? Reduce the cost of doing business, that way businesses can redirect some of their cost of compliance into payroll.
You want a worker's wages to go farther? 1. Reduce the tax burden on the American worker. 2. Reduce the cost of goods and services by reducing the cost of doing business for the businesses that sell goods and services to the American consumer.
Without data revealing the amount of taxes each waiter pays, the amount of each waiter's resulting take-home pay, and the difference in menu prices at the two restaurants (to account for the difference in labor cost), this comparison is worthless. If the German waiter were paying for his healthcare out of a gross wage which was equal to the American waiter's gross wage, the German waiter would likely receive a paycheck close to 0 DM (or are they on the Euro nowadays?) My point is that the German waiter has to make an exorbitant wage to cover the exorbitant amount of taxes that are deducted from his gross earnings. The other side of that coin is that the menu price at the German restaurant must be significantly higher than at the American restaurant to cover the additional labor cost faced by the German restaurant.
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Originally Posted by mkpunk
Well some do but it is hard to do so too. The problem with these government-provided programs are they are steep cliff and not similar to say Obamacare with a hill. If we ease programs rather than a cliff, we may see more people come off of them. The problem is that is a proposal that is never heard, just continue it or get rid of it completely.
Considering how long some of these programs last (99 weeks of unemployment, for example), people have more than enough time to prepare for the date when benefits will end.
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Originally Posted by andywire
Middle class has been on a decline for a long time. Maybe if they try breaking those unions just a wee bit harder
How do you account for the fact that middle-class people/families are upwardly mobile, despite having never worked a union job?
Also, the notion that union-busting has caused the decline of the middle class fails stands in direct contradiction to the fact that union greed caused the offshoring of scores of middle-class jobs by making the cost of domestic labor unsustainably high for domestic manufacturers.
In none of the states where $15/hr minimum wages have passed are small businesses affected. Hotel Chains that charge $500/dy but pay maids $7.50/hr are on notice. Someone who owns 5 hot dog carts will not be forced to pay $15/hr. But there is another piece of this that is always conveniently left out of the argument. Hours. I know servers on both coasts. On the West Coast servers make minimum wage plus tips. In Oregon that's a living wage.
Thing is the servers I know have to call their supervisors at 5:00am to see if they have to work that day. If they get the green light, they suit up and head in. After two or three hours work they might be told to go home OR go off the clock, but stick around, we may need you!!! So you may work 30 hours for the week (never more) 20 or maybe only 10. All at the whim of your supervisor. You put in a 12 hour day at the 'office' but you only get paid for five of them. That happens now at the minimum wage of (in Oregon) $8.90/hr. When it is more than that the managers will just cut the hours more, the overall cost to them in the end will be the SAME.
So... lets cut out the hyperbole and the hysteria. No one will be forcing small employers to pay $15/hr, but seriously if you can't pay $10 maybe you shouldn't be in business? I mean... they pay $3.00/dy in China... don't you see why?? Can you compare America with China? Should you? Go ahead, send those jobs to India... all two of them. That will be a HUGE loss to America. You will eventually do it anyway, because you can. Not because you need to. Just because you can.
This is out-of-touch with today's economic reality. Our economy is certainly not the way it's "always been" by a long shot.
I wonder how many people here who are against raising the minimum wage were happy to get THEIR pay and cost-of living raise increases when they came around. What did you do with that raise? Save more? Take a vacation? Buy a new car? Whatever you did with it, it helped the economy, not hurt it.
Wages earned are reinvested back into the economy. The fact it, there is a HUGE population of low paid workers in this country. Their lack of ability to have much disposable income is one of the biggest drags on the economy. Wages have not kept pace with basic living expenses such as food, housing, etc. With millions on food stamps and other assistance, our society is "paying" for the "cost" of these low wages regardless in the form of our tax dollars. Think fast-food and service industry jobs are easy? They are not. Have you dealt wit the public? Yet the pay is so low and benefits of working them so non-existent, that many have decided it's more beneficial to draw off government assistance, and unfortunately in some ways, they are right. It should not be this way. Someone who is willing to get up and go out and work every day should be doing better than someone on welfare, regardless of how "lowly" you think the job is.
Someone has to serve you at that restaurant, wash your car at Auto Bell while you sit and talk on your cell phone, they clean your hotel room at that resort. Do you not want those workers to be able to support their family without government assistance (our tax dollars)? Companies are getting out of paying true wages that support the cost of living these days because we, the working tax payers, are subsidizing their workers instead. The politicians they contribute to are helping to keep it this way for them. Minimum pay did not go up a penny during the Bush administration. Think corporate profits did not increase? Think the cost of health care, groceries, and energy, etc. did not increase drastically anyway? It did anyway. The argument of wages vs. higher prices is insignificant.
Yeah, "go back to school", "move up the ladder", etc. Sounds like my 83 year old stepfather that had a cushy state job for his entire career. Not everyone has the same connections, resources, or abilities as everyone else - it's "always been" that way.
They are getting out of paying those living wages, however you define them, because plenty of people around the world are willing to work for much less so any low skill job that can be exported has been exported, leaving low skill workers fighting for service type jobs such as cleaning hotel rooms and working at car washes.
The weird thing about proponents of rising minimum wage is that they refuse to acknowledge that every single person can change their situation. The United States is still 1 of the best countries in the world for upward mobility, you can work your way out from the bottom. Almost 60% of millionaires are self made millionaires, 19 of the Forbes 400 were raised in extreme poverty, and those are reportedly the 400 richest people in the world.
21 years ago I graduated high school in an area that was hit hard by the oil field bust of the early 90s, and was raised by a single mom working 3 jobs, one as a teachers aid, and then she drove the special needs bus, and worked retail on the weekends. Needless to say we had enough to pay bills but no extra, and my mom always managed to make enough to never qualify for any of the government programs like food stamps or medicaid. I was a millionaire by the time I turned 26, when the industries I was involved in collapsed a couple of years later I was left with nothing, and went back to school and have rebuilt my life, to where I am back to living in the middle class, and I did it working 2 or 3 jobs for minimum wage or just over while my wife stayed home to take care of my daughter with severe disabilities and my new born son, so it can be done, you just have to pay a big price, and people are not willing to do that.
My mother by the way ended up working full time for the dreaded Walmart, not long after I graduated high school. After starting off part time minimum wage she worked her way up to a nice 6 figure store manager job and retired early, and that is from the hated Walmart.
Instead it is easier to ***** about what others have done for themselves and collect from all the government programs, while the middle class has their cost of living increase, their taxes increase, and are told they are just lucky. Small businesses have ever changing and increasing taxes and regulations while also have a rising cost of doing business, while they are told they are rich and lucky.
when do people start taking responsibility for themselves? When is it not a society problem, but a personal problem? There will always be poor, there will always be people who blame others for their problems (usually the same group as the poor), but when did those attitudes become the norm? When did it become acceptable to complain that others will not give you more of what they have because you want it?
In none of the states where $15/hr minimum wages have passed are small businesses affected. Hotel Chains that charge $500/dy but pay maids $7.50/hr are on notice. Someone who owns 5 hot dog carts will not be forced to pay $15/hr. But there is another piece of this that is always conveniently left out of the argument. Hours. I know servers on both coasts. On the West Coast servers make minimum wage plus tips. In Oregon that's a living wage.
You just keep proving how little you understand business with every post. Small businesses are affected, in fact they are affected much more heavily that large businesses. Like it or not the market sets what we have to pay for our employees, artificially inflating a wage for large businesses mean that small business have to at least meet that raise to get the quality of employees they need.
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Thing is the servers I know have to call their supervisors at 5:00am to see if they have to work that day. If they get the green light, they suit up and head in. After two or three hours work they might be told to go home OR go off the clock, but stick around, we may need you!!! So you may work 30 hours for the week (never more) 20 or maybe only 10. All at the whim of your supervisor. You put in a 12 hour day at the 'office' but you only get paid for five of them. That happens now at the minimum wage of (in Oregon) $8.90/hr. When it is more than that the managers will just cut the hours more, the overall cost to them in the end will be the SAME.
It is up to that employee to change their situation, and last I checked it is actually illegal for a restaurant to require an employee to do anything that they are not paid for. Also quit trying to tell me that any server makes close to minimum wage, if they do then they should switch to washing dishes, as even average servers in a city with the most restaurants per capita in the country make much more than minimum wage. But do you think the rising wages are going to help those employees? In Seattle where the new wages have went into affect only directly affect 1500 people it has already been found that more restaurants are closing and that restaurants have on average 3 fewer employees than the national average, but you are right it is having no effect on businesses. We Are Seeing The Effects Of Seattle's $15 An Hour Minimum Wage - Forbes
So... lets cut out the hyperbole and the hysteria. No one will be forcing small employers to pay $15/hr, but seriously if you can't pay $10 maybe you shouldn't be in business? I mean... they pay $3.00/dy in China... don't you see why?? Can you compare America with China? Should you? Go ahead, send those jobs to India... all two of them. That will be a HUGE loss to America. You will eventually do it anyway, because you can. Not because you need to. Just because you can.
You want to talk about hyperbole, here is a study conducted by the pew research center, showing that actually adjusted for inflation the minimum wage should be a whole $8.54 if you use the peak in purchasing power. 5 facts about the minimum wage | Pew Research Center
As for my 2 jobs, considering I have 6 employees my 2 jobs will be a 1/3 rd of my workforce, and if every small business does the same how much does that affect the job situation for low income workers? You see it is not about paying $10 an hour, I pay considerably more than that now, but it is about the ripple affects of moving minimum wage workers to a much higher pay scale, and forcing the market to adjust upward for quality employees. If I wanted to outsource some of my staff I could have done it years ago I prefer not to, but if people like you get what you want than I will be forced to or I will eventually have to cost all 6 of my employees their jobs.
You see you can only think for how it affects you, you have no idea how businesses work, and you also have no idea of the scale of things. Are you going to be 1 of the 1 million people that will lose their job if minimum wage increases 30% as shown by the study linked below? What does that 1 million turn to if as you are pushing the minimum wage increases almost 100%? Does that turn into 3.33 million, or does the job loss compound if you have your way we will find out, and it is not going to be pretty?
Now if you really want to talk about adjusting for inflation, fine let's talk about raising the minimum wage to the inflation adjusted peak, we can go to $8.54, but that is not what you want, you think that people making $15 an hour will be getting a living wage, and the answer is that inflation will change that quickly and the jobs lost will not make those people's lives any better.
It is up to that employee to change their situation, and last I checked it is actually illegal for a restaurant to require an employee to do anything that they are not paid for. Also quit trying to tell me that any server makes close to minimum wage, if they do then they should switch to washing dishes, as even average servers in a city with the most restaurants per capita in the country make much more than minimum wage. But do you think the rising wages are going to help those employees?
Is your name Pretzel? It should be. Adjusted for inflation the minimum wage should be $21.16/hr. this is not my math. You can Google it for yourself. "Peak Purchasing Power"? Oh brother... the energy you people put into telling people its raining when actually what's happening is... ... of course it is illegal to aks workers to work for no pay. Did I say they do? I said they send the workers home early OR tell them to come back later. Did I say they keep them working but do not pay them? What restaurants DO is keep workers close to the premises on the chance that they might get hours. This keeps them from being able to work somewhere else. That is why this is a bad practice.
And, yes, it IS that servers fault that they are not President of The United States. They have to live with that every day. So do you. And? SOMEONE has to wait tables. SOMEONE will wait tables. We actually were never meant to be anything other than efficient hunters of food for ourselves and our immediate family. The brain power to become a Nuclear Physicist is not given to all of us or even most of us. An earlier poster nailed it: the low wages paid by the Wal-Mart's of the world have to be supplemented by tax-payers.
Is that efficient? A growing number of municipalities think it is not. Trust me, they are not being sympathetic to the bleating low wage rabble. They are responding to more objective data. You on the other hand are being purely subjective and superior. Luckily you aren't deciding the ultimate fate of the many millions affected by the unwillingness of employers to compensate modern workers for their efforts.
Is your name Pretzel? It should be. Adjusted for inflation the minimum wage should be $21.16/hr. this is not my math. You can Google it for yourself. "Peak Purchasing Power"? Oh brother... the energy you people put into telling people its raining when actually what's happening is... ... of course it is illegal to aks workers to work for no pay. Did I say they do? I said they send the workers home early OR tell them to come back later. Did I say they keep them working but do not pay them? What restaurants DO is keep workers close to the premises on the chance that they might get hours. This keeps them from being able to work somewhere else. That is why this is a bad practice.
You people huh? Now if your stance is $21.16 an hour than please post a direct link or two showing that, and not some blog hosted by people pushing for the increase but from a respected 3rd party, as I just did. Or are 3rd parties only respected when they agree with you?
Also it is the employees choice to decide whether to stay and wait or come back for more hours, they are under no requirement and if that is the choice they make than it is up to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
And, yes, it IS that servers fault that they are not President of The United States. They have to live with that every day. So do you. And? SOMEONE has to wait tables. SOMEONE will wait tables. We actually were never meant to be anything other than efficient hunters of food for ourselves and our immediate family. The brain power to become a Nuclear Physicist is not given to all of us or even most of us. An earlier poster nailed it: the low wages paid by the Wal-Mart's of the world have to be supplemented by tax-payers.
Still trying with the hyperbole I see. Nobody is saying they have to be President of the United States, and nobody has to do anything in this country, except paying taxes on your income and dying. However you do not have to be a nuclear physicist to do better than working as a server, in fact most servers are have a much better education than some millionaires I know, a couple of which are illiterate.
Also maybe you missed my post about my mother retiring early after working for Walmart for 16 years, you see she showed up, did her job to the best of her ability, took promotions when they were offered, and was able to retire early paying cash for a house and a car on the beach. Prior to working at Walmart she was working 3 jobs trying to survive and paying the way for 4 of us kids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Is that efficient? A growing number of municipalities think it is not. Trust me, they are not being sympathetic to the bleating low wage rabble. They are responding to more objective data. You on the other hand are being purely subjective and superior. Luckily you aren't deciding the ultimate fate of the many millions affected by the unwillingness of employers to compensate modern workers for their efforts.
Please show me all the studies done by 3rd parties that raising the minimum wage is good for all of us, I am waiting. For some reason I doubt you are able, as you seem to be ignoring the 3rd party information I posted for more of your rhetoric. Also please have them show examples, where the wages have been raised to $15 an hour, after all we should deal with the real world, and I have posted 3 showing real world examples directly affecting the majority of minimum wage workers which is restaurant workers across the country.
That growing number of municipalities are actually ignoring economics and studies playing the populist to continue being reelected, that fact that places like Seattle are pushing these feel good measures knowing that it actually only affects .042% of the population does not make your argument, as it does not affect the national labor market. Someone making $60,000 in Seattle does not automatically demand a raise, as others from around the country are willing to do that job for the same wage. When the rest of the country raises their wages is when the biggest affect will happen and we will all pay the price.
That hasn't been true since the Clinton White House. Let it go already. Arizona is bringing in a one year maximum. Let it go already. But be assured. The answer is not to accept that $7.50 or even $9.00/hr is fair compensation for any work done in as high maintenance a country as America. A waiter in NYC makes 1/2 minimum wage plus tips. A waiter in Stutgart makes minimum wage ($20/hr plus tips). The American waiter has to pay for his own healthcare, that could easily be equal to his take home pay and more. The waiter in Stutgart has his healthcare paid out of his taxes. Taxes that are not any higher than what the waiter in NYC pays.
Minimum wage in Germany is about $12.00 US per hour, and pretty much nobody in Germany tips except for American tourists. So no, you are completely wrong.
What I'm saying is that if you run a business and your workers are subsidized - then your business only runs because of those subsidies or else you would have to raise wages to the level of wage + entitlement. Thank the liberals for making your business run.
I'm pretty liberal myself but would be willing to eliminate programs like food stamps based on this. We should have a labor movement that makes an argument for the value of workers, not programs that make poverty somewhat more tolerable. I understand why the programs are needed for some people, but I would rather pressure employers to pay workers what they're worth rather than enable them to pay sub-par wages because the workers can make up the difference with food stamps, WIC or what have you. If workers feel they're not paid enough they should organize and go on strike.
That said - I was working at Wal-Mart while in school when the last minimum wage hike happened. They did a CoL adjustment for everyone and changed the wage scales eliminating those steps between 7.25 and 5.15 as the mandated increases phased in (I think it was done in .65 cent increments over 2 years). The people at $5.15 got the biggest wage hike but there weren't that many of them - literally the only people making minimum at my store were the brand new cart pushers - maybe 10-12 out of the 300+ staff and they'd get a raise after 6 months. I had started around $8.75 an hour and they moved it to 9.55 or something like that and you got yearly step raises anyway so it was just like an extra step had taken place. There was no detrimental effect - NONE - to the store. In fact we did great business that year (2007).
The biggest problem I see is that there is little to no worker organization - and then very little sympathy for them. I worked fast food for about a year and half all told when I was 19-21. It's NOT all that easy - everyone canNOT do it, or at least not be good at it. During rush times it takes organization and precision that not everyone has. It takes a level of energy that not everyone can keep up with. Some people get too anxious and flustered to move quickly enough. I saw people wash out as quickly as a day or two - actually my feeling why pay was so low was not because it was such easy work but rather because it was harder than perceived - the turnover rate was so ridiculously high you could work your way up to manager in a few years by pure attrition alone. Add some competence to that and you could be running a store in 7 years.
Are you serious about this? Workers that can't make ends meet on $8 per hour sure can't make ends meet on $0 per hour. The Walmarts of the world will close any location that votes in a union. What is 1, or 10, or 100 less Walmarts to the corporate establishment compared to setting an example?
so... after working 8 years, think their skills didn't increase? Why didn't they switch to a better job if they gained more skills? They can't just "stick" with the same job and complain about it either, why just do the bare minimum if you know it limits your growth?
What color is the sky in your world? Most seriously low paying jobs don't build up the skill set of the employees. What skills increases are you expecting from a fry cook, a guy doing oil changes at jiffy lube, a retail store cashier, a cleaning lady, a dog walker, a telemarketer, a clerk at the BMV, the guy cleaning stables, an assembler screwing pieces together on an assembly line, a carpet steam cleaner, a waitress at a family dining restaurant, a PBX operator, a dishwasher, the retail stock clerk, the short haul truck driver, the nursing assistant at the local nursing home, and thousands of other jobs where you go to work, do what your boss tells you, and go home at the end of your shift. There is no 'working your way up' for tens of millions of American workers in these positions, no additional training, and no opportunity to learn more on the job when the boss wants you to concentrate on performing the job you were hired for.
Considering how long some of these programs last (99 weeks of unemployment, for example), people have more than enough time to prepare for the date when benefits will end.
Not really the point I was going for but I'll bite. That is true but it's not exactly like you will get high amounts of unemployment that you can account for setting aside unemployment. Only a handful of state unemployment maximums are high enough one can truly do that.
As for the point I was making, your point is irrelevant. It is more of say unemployment offering more than the job offers or making too much to qualify for say food stamps or the Obamacare Medicaid cut offs. But you likely knew that already.
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