Is the climate of the southeast really an inferior/not a true subtropical climate? (cloudy, parallel)
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I'm not sure about the "pine" species in the Southern Hemisphere, regarding their laurophyll or sclerophyll characteristics. But, for sure, the preponderance of pine in much of the Southern US is a result of the cold snaps. Humid subtropical/tropical vegetation with sufficiently wet environments are to be classic for laurophyll evergreen species, just like the forests in northern Argentina/coastal Brazil (i.e. Atlantic Forest) as well as southerly areas of East Asia (i.e. southern China, southern Japan, Taiwan, etc and southwards).
In this case, the link is not direct, since the pines, as mentioned, do have warm-climate affinities. Instead, the cold incursions have accompanying sheer dryness (i.e. hence the drastic dewpoint depressions after the fronts), introducing aridity onto an otherwise humid subtropical South. With enough warmth and dryness, you can get wildfires going (i.e. Florida), but even with sustained cold, the dryness is still such that plants would have to minimize water loss in some way (especially considering winds with the fronts).
As a result, a lot of the plants in the Southern US, like the live oak or pines, can be either sclerophyll or have have sclerophyll characteristics (i.e. semi-sclerophyll). It's no wonder, everywhere else in the humid subtropics/tropics that have pines, its all up in the mountains (i.e. Philippines), or there are some sort of harsh dry seasons (i.e. w/ wildfires). With the Caribbean Pine, that seems to be a relic from the Ice Age on the Bahamas, and even there, their presence is only maintained where there are sufficient wildfires — suppression of fires leads to evergreen broadleaf forest on those islands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_pine#Ecology
If I got this right, you're saying because of the cold fronts in winter the US southeast essentially mimics a Cwa climate because they usually produce very dry air behind them. Is sclerophyll vegetation more common in Cwa places like northern India and south central China?
I read an article in Augusta magazine that talked about Augusta originally being a long leaf pine savanna that had periodic fires every 4 or 5 years that cleared the way for it's dominance, they depended on those fires happening regularly.
Long leaf and slash pines are only hardy to zone 7, caribbean pines are even more tender to zone 10, did these pines lose their cold hardiness after the last Ice Age ended and the weather warmed.
No, it’s dishonesty. They don’t come up short compared to other regions of a similar climate, because the other region with a significant area of humid subtropical, Asia, has cold averages to match and exceed in severity the averages in the subtropical regions of the US. And Japan gets tons of snow across the entire island. You’re just flat out wrong.
Probably you should look at this map again because I see significant areas of humid subtropical beyond just Asia and USA.
Koppen World Map Cwa Cfa
Koppen_World_Map_Hi-Res.png: Peel, M. C., Finlayson, B. L., and McMahon, T. A.(University of Melbourne)
derivative work: Me ne frego, CC BY-SA 3.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0>, via Wikimedia Commons
I agree with you though: the Asian Cfa climates, like the USA ones, are not too flash. They do have extremes closer to averages though which would suggest more stability; some may prefer this whereas others would prefer higher averages at the cost of less stability. I for one couldn't care less because the Southern Hemisphere ones have them both beat.
A very solid definition of subtropical is that there are broadleaf evergreens native in the vegetation. The Great Smokies and central VA have quite a bit of that comfy broadleaf evergreen cover there, which definitely makes it feel subtropical imo .
The forest you mentioned hugs the coast of S Korea at ~33 degrees and south of the Yangtze is only around 31 degrees, not all that impressive.
It is, considering that many equivalent latitudes in the SE US (i.e. central MS and AL, for instance) are chock loaded with bare-bones deciduous during winter. Or, if they are evergreen, are mostly pine with some shrubby broadleaf evergreens (i.e. hollies). Nothing like the full blown broadleaf canopy forests in those areas of East Asia.
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That's roughly the distribution of your precious laurel Cinnamomum camphora. Where are the palm trees? Yunnan, Guangxi, and Guangzhou are home to many native palms but not many found north of Guizhou and Fujian. Just Trachycarpus?
Red Bay (same genus as avocado) makes it all the way up the SE coast into extreme southeastern Virginia at 36 degrees.
Plenty of other evergreen trees in the south/se coast too i.e Gordonia lasianthus, Prunus caroliniana, Myrica spp., Magnolia spp., and several species of palm: Sabal palmetto, Sabal minor, Sabal x brazoriensis, Sereona repens, and Rhapidophyllum hystrix.
The Pampa more subtropical than anything in the USA? Forget Hawaii, South Florida has tropical broadleaf forest . Tropical species (e.g. Ficus aurea) from the Caribbean make it along the immediate coast to about 29 degrees just south of Daytona Beach.
Florida, and any other areas of Southern states close enough to the coast, are the only areas even remotely humid subtropical in terms of vegetative sequence. Low inland areas of the South, in places like Valdosta or Augusta in GA, or San Antonio in Texas, have better sequences than areas of the South farther north. It really does seem that FireBird hit the nail on the head with the ~8B annual winter low isotherm as the boundary for the Southern US — and for better presentations, one must hug the coast of the Carolinas and Georgia, then stay around/south of I-10 going west along the Gulf Coast.
But, still, consider that vegetation in the Pampas all the way down Argentina (areas similar in latitude to Virginia) are cold hardy only to low 20s (9A) ... you have to be in peninsular Florida to have stuff even remotely that tender. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytolacca_dioica
Last edited by kemahkami; 11-03-2021 at 12:03 PM..
If I got this right, you're saying because of the cold fronts in winter the US southeast essentially mimics a Cwa climate because they usually produce very dry air behind them. Is sclerophyll vegetation more common in Cwa places like northern India and south central China?
Yes, the cold air has much lower dewpoints, especially coming over land from Canada. That does interject drying influences that disrupt the otherwise humid South, especially with the strong winds associated with cold front passages. Still overall moist climate during summer, so the South isn't full blown sclerophyll like a med climate, more just some semi-sclerophyll characteristics (i.e. live oak, pines, maybe the southern magnolia).
The (cwa) climates in Eastern Asia are laurophyll. The combination of sufficiently mild winter conditions (controlled highs in the 60s to 70s with no severe cold outbreaks), as well as adequate moisture (periodic cloudiness and fog) help to retain this characteristic.
However, the climates in alot India are just too hot and/or dry outside of the monsoon season, seeing average highs near, at, even exceeding 100°F during their premonsoon summer heating — they aren't even sclerophyll, just full blown tropical deciduous or savannah. The only exceptions in the subcontinent (not including elevations) are the Malabar coast (southwest Indian peninsula), and then eastern lowlands around the Bengal (i.e. around Calcutta through Assam, and then neighboring countries of Bangladesh and Myanmar, etc).
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I read an article in Augusta magazine that talked about Augusta originally being a long leaf pine savanna that had periodic fires every 4 or 5 years that cleared the way for it's dominance, they depended on those fires happening regularly.
Long leaf and slash pines are only hardy to zone 7, caribbean pines are even more tender to zone 10, did these pines lose their cold hardiness after the last Ice Age ended and the weather warmed.
The southern pines definitely have warm-climate affinities. They just need a drier, drought-prone biome in some form or mechanisms compared to laurophyll evergreen forests — could be sandier soils that lose water faster, the dryness of the cold fronts, a dry enough dry season, or whaterver. The outer tropics, including Florida and Bahamas, would have been a lot drier during the Ice Age, even if still warm — would have then allowed those types of pines to proliferate, then maintain in spots that are sufficient (i.e. where fires still occur, etc).
A very solid definition of subtropical is that there are broadleaf evergreens native in the vegetation. The Great Smokies and central VA have quite a bit of that comfy broadleaf evergreen cover there, which definitely makes it feel subtropical imo .
I'm not so sure. We have native broadleaf evergreen trees here on Vancouver Island.
It is, considering that many equivalent latitudes in the SE US (i.e. central MS and AL, for instance) are chock loaded with bare-bones deciduous during winter. Or, if they are evergreen, are mostly pine with some shrubby broadleaf evergreens (i.e. hollies). Nothing like the full blown broadleaf canopy forests in those areas of East Asia.
Florida, and any other areas of Southern states close enough to the coast, are the only areas even remotely humid subtropical in terms of vegetative sequence. Low inland areas of the South, in places like Valdosta or Augusta in GA, or San Antonio in Texas, have better sequences than areas of the South farther north. It really does seem that FireBird hit the nail on the head with the ~8B annual winter low isotherm as the boundary for the Southern US — and for better presentations, one must hug the coast of the Carolinas and Georgia, then stay around/south of I-10 going west along the Gulf Coast.
But, still, consider that vegetation in the Pampas all the way down Argentina (areas similar in latitude to Virginia) are cold hardy only to low 20s (9A) ... you have to be in peninsular Florida to have stuff even remotely that tender. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytolacca_dioica
Valdosta is just under the 31st parallel like your Yangtze comparison.
You could say the same thing about hugging the coast in Korea, why is the broadleaf forest literally hugging the coast? The interior gets too cold!
The giant herb tree thing you keep worshipping is mostly native north of Buenos Aires (greatest abundance in Corrientes and Misiones) and at its southern limit is hugging the southern shore of Rio de la Plata.
Your comparisons are all over the place. Is it Guangzhou, the Yangtze, or Korea? Borderline tropical Atlantic Forest or the not very forest-y Pampa? If you want to bring up non-continental Taiwan and Japan, well you can compare them to all of the very green east coast barrier islands from Key Biscayne to the Sea Islands that extend to SC. Or better yet Grand Bahama and Bermuda.
I'm not so sure. We have native broadleaf evergreen trees here on Vancouver Island.
Could be because the Pacific NW is not only home to a few species of broadleaf evergreens but also green grass in the winter; it looks a lot milder than say, Oklahoma or Kansas during the winter.
Nah, I've been very specific and consistent w/regards to the climate effect on vegetation, and the indicated examples provided. You're just too busy nitpicking and going tit-for-tat over minor quibbles, that you miss the entire point all together.
Point being, the impressive effects on vegetative ecology based on seemingly inconsequential climate parameters. That light freeze you get once a year in winter could be all that is stopping a full-blown evergreen paradise from coming forth (i.e. bit of hyperbole, but you get the point).
The 8B+ SE US is certainly humid subtropical ... just not as well developed as one compared to South America or (southern) East Asia, when you look in terms of laurophyll dominance. To be fair, much of Australia, Africa, and India don't have well developed humid subtropical regions either, because they have too much dryness going on in some form or another.
Could be because the Pacific NW is not only home to a few species of broadleaf evergreens but also green grass in the winter; it looks a lot milder than say, Oklahoma or Kansas during the winter.
It could simply be that the grass species are different. The PNW would have cooler weather species that stay green year-round, since the summers are relatively cool, particularly on the immediate Pacific shore (i.e. heat domes notwithstanding). Whereas Oklahoma and Kansas would have grasses that need to withstand heat in the summer, and said grasses often are the warm weather species that brown out with deep freezes.
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