How is possible that the traffic is that bad??? (Annapolis: schools, living in)

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by adelphi_sky

It depends. I agree with Bufflove. I mean it is like a person in College Park complaining about noisy students. Well, you moved next to a major university. What did you expect?

I recall an article about a mother who moved to Hagerstown because she wanted her kids to go to a good school. She left at 4am and got home at like 7pm. She has no right to complain about traffic or the time it takes away from her family. It was her choice. Not a very bright one. Kinda defeats the purpose if you miss out on the life of your children int he process. But by golly they will know how to read! Unfortunately WTOP took down the article. Probably because there was a lot of negative feedback.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/washi...out-you-2.html

Or how about a person who moves to NYC and complains about people being everywhere all the time. Sometimes I think people are responsible for their own choices. If you KNOW the area you are moving to is growing rapidly, you should also know that roads and transportation are always the last to be built to account for that growth.

And adding and widening roads never helps. It is a very simply science problem. If you are trying to get water into a can with a hole the diameter of a dime and the hose leading to that hole has the circumference of a dime, it doesn't matter how big the hose is 5,10, 30 feet away, all that water still has to go through that tiny hose. DC isn't going to build ten lane roads throughout the city. So all these feeder roads and highways in and around the Beltway can't get any bigger. There's a point where it is futile. The same goes for roads in the exurbs, you can only build and widen so much before you put stress on roads further down the line that weren't designed to take 500,000 autos per hour.

You can use the same analogy for transit. The bottom line is still that the system was designed for a world that no longer exists.


It doesn't matter how many people move to the city if their jobs are in the suburbs and transit doesn't go there easily.


As far as agencies and contractors moving back, how long have they been screwing around with the FBI headquarters.


Them you have Fort Meade and NSA for one example. That was a backwater in many ways 30 years ago. Now it's massive. And no one, absolutely no one, foresaw that back then. No one dreamed of BRAC or ELINT to level that it now exists.

[bufflove]

Originally Posted by Woodfin

But I know for a fact that anyone commuting on Metro from Montgomery County, where I am, will almost universally have a much longer commute by Metro than by driving.

I dunno...that sounds like a pretty wonky "fact." And that's odd for you to initially claim that road traffic is so terrible and metro should be expanded, but now say roads are "almost universally" faster than metro. I'm happy for you if you find driving to be faster, but for me it's not even close. I'm in downtown Silver Spring and driving downtown via 16th or 13th is a complete catastrophe during rush hour. Metro, even when you get unlucky and have a 5 minute headway, is still substantially faster. I wouldn't live in MoCo but for the ease of a 25 minute Metro commute. That's not to say I disagree with your assertion that mass transit should be improved upon. More express bus lines (BRT) and inter-connectivity among the metro rail spokes (Purple Line) would go a long way towards making mass transit a viable option for more residents which would in turn help alleviate some of the road congestion, at least for a time.

[papichulo2]

Originally Posted by Woodfin

Agree.

We need a reliable subway system.....that DOESN'T motivate people to NOT use it by basically doubling fares during the times of heaviest traffic commuting. I mean.....what kind of sense does THAT make ?!! We need a transit system that actually motivates people to use public transit instead of driving.

wait.. they DOUBLE FARE PRICE DURING RUSH HOUR?? no wonder my smart rip was down to 1.75 in 5 days after loading 20$.

[dkf747]

Originally Posted by adelphi_sky

It depends. I agree with Bufflove. I mean it is like a person in College Park complaining about noisy students. Well, you moved next to a major university. What did you expect?

Expect? A well designed transportation system. I complain because it is poorly designed.

I recall an article about a mother who moved to Hagerstown because she wanted her kids to go to a good school. She left at 4am and got home at like 7pm. She has no right to complain about traffic or the time it takes away from her family. It was her choice. Not a very bright one. Kinda defeats the purpose if you miss out on the life of your children int he process. But by golly they will know how to read! Unfortunately WTOP took down the article. Probably because there was a lot of negative feedback.

Well choosing an extreme example like Hagerstown is not worth discussing. Germantown would be a better example. Clarksburg would be another. Yes, I do know people do move way out to places like Hagerstown and commute in. I can agree that they don't have a right to complain.

And adding and widening roads never helps. It is a very simply science problem. If you are trying to get water into a can with a hole the diameter of a dime and the hose leading to that hole has the circumference of a dime, it doesn't matter how big the hose is 5,10, 30 feet away, all that water still has to go through that tiny hose. DC isn't going to build ten lane roads throughout the city. So all these feeder roads and highways in and around the Beltway can't get any bigger. There's a point where it is futile. The same goes for roads in the exurbs, you can only build and widen so much before you put stress on roads further down the line that weren't designed to take 500,000 autos per hour.

I don't totally disagree. However, the way you have framed it makes it seem like we should do nothing. That is not going to help. Some places need widening, and others need other solutions. Saying that no place should be widened or improved is not a solution to the problem.

[seanlax]

"moved to Hagerstown because she wanted her kids to go to a good school"

Well that's where I would stop reading. Hagerstown is NOT know for good schools. Hagerstown is known for warehouses, outlets, a reasonably decent local economy, and Sheetz. I love Sheetz.

[adelphi_sky]

Originally Posted by dkf747

Expect? A well designed transportation system. I complain because it is poorly designed.

I disagree. Was it poor design BEFORE there was congestion? I'm not so sure we can blame traffic on poor road design without first taking a look at why the roads are so congested in the first place. What about sprawl and building neighborhoods where there was no infrastructure? Creating new traffic flows into roads that weren't built for such fast growth? In addition, building new towns where there is no mass transit?

I think everyone can agree that the roads worked fine BEFORE the DC region started growing 30 years ago. And the metro system expansion always lagged behind growth by 15 to 20 years. The Dulles Toll Road was congested 15 years before the Silver Line opened. The Purple Line was an idea back in 1995. It is JUST now getting started. But look at the traffic on the northern half of the Beltway. That congestion has been there for more than 20 years.

I don't totally disagree. However, the way you have framed it makes it seem like we should do nothing. That is not going to help. Some places need widening, and others need other solutions. Saying that no place should be widened or improved is not a solution to the problem.

Widening only works to some degree. It does tend to give people the false impression that because there is another lane, there won't be traffic. But all lanes lead to the same choke points. With widening, you just get more cars to those choke points quicker.

How about lasting solutions like Rapid bus lanes and investment in heavy and light rail? Those investments pay off decades down the road. Road widening to me just puts off the inevitable; a temporary fix.

[dkf747]

Originally Posted by adelphi_sky

I disagree. Was it poor design BEFORE there was congestion? I'm not so sure we can blame traffic on poor road design without first taking a look at why the roads are so congested in the first place. What about sprawl and building neighborhoods where there was no infrastructure? Creating new traffic flows into roads that weren't built for such fast growth? In addition, building new towns where there is no mass transit?

I think everyone can agree that the roads worked fine BEFORE the DC region started growing 30 years ago. And the metro system expansion always lagged behind growth by 15 to 20 years. The Dulles Toll Road was congested 15 years before the Silver Line opened. The Purple Line was an idea back in 1995. It is JUST now getting started. But look at the traffic on the northern half of the Beltway. That congestion has been there for more than 20 years.

Widening only works to some degree. It does tend to give people the false impression that because there is another lane, there won't be traffic. But all lanes lead to the same choke points. With widening, you just get more cars to those choke points quicker.

How about lasting solutions like Rapid bus lanes and investment in heavy and light rail? Those investments pay off decades down the road. Road widening to me just puts off the inevitable; a temporary fix.

Just because they worked before does not mean the design was very good. The beltway dropping to two lanes near 355 is a bad design. Adding a lane there is a good idea. I'm not advocating 10 lanes each way. I'm interested in fixing bad designs that make things worse than they have to be. I'm also interested in other forms of transportation like those you mentioned, so I do agree they will pay off down the line.

[adelphi_sky]

Originally Posted by dkf747

Just because they worked before does not mean the design was very good. The beltway dropping to two lanes near 355 is a bad design. Adding a lane there is a good idea. I'm not advocating 10 lanes each way. I'm interested in fixing bad designs that make things worse than they have to be. I'm also interested in other forms of transportation like those you mentioned, so I do agree they will pay off down the line.

A good example is the ICC. A TON of people called the ICC unnecessary and badly misplaced. They said it is underused and a waste of money. According to your point of view, would it not be good road planning in anticipation for future growth between I-95 and I-270?

[MidValleyDad]

Originally Posted by adelphi_sky

A good example is the ICC. A TON of people called the ICC unnecessary and badly misplaced. They said it is underused and a waste of money. According to your point of view, would it not be good road planning in anticipation for future growth between I-95 and I-270?

The ICC was a GREAT idea when first laid out 30 or so years ago but being hacked at as a political football ruined the entire concept. If the entire road as conceived had been built (including crossing the Potomac) it would have been great. but as completed it is a mere shadow of what was planned.

[dkf747]

Originally Posted by adelphi_sky

A good example is the ICC. A TON of people called the ICC unnecessary and badly misplaced. They said it is underused and a waste of money. According to your point of view, would it not be good road planning in anticipation for future growth between I-95 and I-270?

When I lived in Gaithersburg, I loved the ICC. Now that I live elsewhere, I see it differently. I do see the need for a road going east-west, but the ICC might be overkill. Improving other routes would have been better.