Houston vs. Dallas (Fort Worth, Arlington, Irving: homeless, parking, grocery)

[First24]

Moderator cut: orphaned

Originally Posted by randian

Even if true, so what? In every dimension, rail is a terrible means of moving people.

People sitting in traffic solo in a car for 2 to 6 hours a day, five days a week, is a terrible means of moving people.

Care to elaborate on your opinion reguarding rail transit?

[Metro Matt]

Originally Posted by Dangerfield

People sitting in traffic solo in a car for 2 to 6 hours a day, five days a week, is a terrible means of moving people.

Care to elaborate on your opinion reguarding rail transit?

You have not a clue, do you Dangerfield? Let me educate you a little bit here...

Houston's Metro Bus fleet is the largest in the US at 1,219 vehicles & a daily ridership of 600,500 plus including rail. This does not even include The Woodlands Express which has park & ride in The Woodlands, Spring, & Conroe. It also has fixed routes daily to Bryan/College Station, Lufkin, & Nacogdoches.

By comparison, DART has 673 buses & a daily ridership of 200,000 with light rail. How weak is that?

[First24]

Originally Posted by Metro Matt

You have not a clue, do you Dangerfield? Let me educate you a little bit here...

Houston's Metro Bus fleet is the largest in the US at 1,219 vehicles & a daily ridership of 600,500 plus including rail. This does not even include The Woodlands Express which has park & ride in The Woodlands, Spring, & Conroe. It also has fixed routes daily to Bryan/College Station, Lufkin, & Nacogdoches.

By comparison, DART has 673 buses & a daily ridership of 200,000 with light rail. How weak is that?

While bus transit is evolving, LRT is the future. I won't even attempt to argue your above numbers. I would expect the DFW area's rail ridership to increase signifcantly once key routes are completed; ie.. Orange Line: DFW to Love Field to Downtown.

Some LRT vs Bus factoids:

" the experience of actual transit operations doesn't seem to jibe with the predictions and the claims. By and large, despite the barrage of "Think Rail, Use Buses" hype, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that rail, such as the increasingly preferred LRT mode, significantly outperforms "BRT" in attracting ridership. "

Link:
Rail Transit vs. "Bus Rapid Transit": Ridership Comparison - Light Rail Now


DART was recently recognized as being the best transit agency in North, Central and South America at the annual MetroRail conference presented March 31.
http://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=848

Some up and coming DART Rail Station openings and projects.

Orange Line ribbon cutting: by njjeppson


All photos orignially posted by njjeppson:

MLK Station




Baylor Station



Fair Park Station


Matt, I'm not an expert, but I do have a clue.

[randian]

Touting LRT ridership while ignoring its cost is gross malfeasance. The author of that article ought to be drawn and quartered.

[Metro Matt]

Originally Posted by randian

Touting LRT ridership while ignoring its cost is gross malfeasance. The author of that article ought to be drawn and quartered.

I have mixed feelings about light rail, though over all its probably a good thing for both cities especially if we see gas prices continuing to climb.

[Spade]

I think Light Rail built right is ok but for cities like Dallas and Houston, they need to start looking into Heavy Rail Washington DC and Atlanta style.

[Synopsis]

Rail (light or otherwise) is far superior to bus transport. Buses are subject to the same restrictions as car travel, while light or heavy rail doesn't have to navigate traffic. There is no comparison, IMO. To tout that you have the largest bus fleet in the country is no bragging point if you ask me. It's good to have public transportation as you say, but taking a bus all over Houston would be a nightmare.

For example, to travel from the Hurst substation to downtown Dallas using the TRE (Trinity Railway Express) is 25 minutes, give or take a few (and that's consistent day in and day out, regardless of traffic).

In a car it would take about 45 minutes; depending on traffic, it could be MUCH longer. In a bus, it would take two or three hours.

[First24]

Originally Posted by randian

Touting LRT ridership while ignoring its cost is gross malfeasance. The author of that article ought to be drawn and quartered.

The cost of continually building and maintaining massive freeways and secondary roads is a gross malfeasance. Also, the cost to the environment and the hours of quality time lost while sitting in traffic every weekday, etc..

Beyond cost, elaborate on your previous statement: "in every dimension rail is a terrible means of moving people". What's your alternative means of efficiently moving the hundreds of thousands to million+ new residents that are moving into metros like DFW and Houston each decade, also the 5-6 million+ current residents?

Originally Posted by Spade

I think Light Rail built right is ok but for cities like Dallas and Houston, they need to start looking into Heavy Rail Washington DC and Atlanta style.

I agree, eventually heavy rail should be considered. LRT; which is less expensive and faster to build, was an easier idea for DART officials to sell to many of the car-centric DFW area taxpayers.

If I'm not mistaken there are a few commuter rail expansions going on throughout the Metroplex. BNSF rail line in Las Colinas is one project that comes to mind. FT Worth is also expanding it's streetcar system.

Originally Posted by Synopsis

Rail (light or otherwise) is far superior to bus transport. Buses are subject to the same restrictions as car travel, while light or heavy rail doesn't have to navigate traffic. There is no comparison, IMO. To tout that you have the largest bus fleet in the country is no bragging point if you ask me. It's good to have public transportation as you say, but taking a bus all over Houston would be a nightmare.

For example, to travel from the Hurst substation to downtown Dallas using the TRE (Trinity Railway Express) is 25 minutes, give or take a few (and that's consistent day in and day out, regardless of traffic).

In a car it would take about 45 minutes; depending on traffic, it could be MUCH longer. In a bus, it would take two or three hours.

Good post.

[Metro Matt]

Originally Posted by Synopsis

There is no comparison, IMO. To tout that you have the largest bus fleet in the country is no bragging point if you ask me. It's good to have public transportation as you say, but taking a bus all over Houston would be a nightmare.

Its not that bad...Houston has HOV lanes in the center of the freeways specifically dedicated to its Metro buses, unlike Dallas. The only heavy traffic really is off of the freeway. Houston's complex network of freeways & tollways is leaps & bounds ahead of Dallas' very outdated road system thats crumbling to pieces. I am well aware 635 is getting an overhaul as its long over due, I-35 & the Dallas "Mix master" downtown are a disgrace to a city as large as Dallas. You would think you're in Detroit or some dying city like that by the looks of Dallas' older freeways.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/HoustonKatyFreewayHOV.jpg (broken link)

"METRO has been known for pioneering the use of express buses in HOV lanes. This was part of the reversible HOV lane concept that began in 1979 with the completion of the North Freeway (I-45) Contraflow Lane. This concept used the inside freeway lane of the "opposite" direction separated by traffic pylons and is closed to all vehicles except buses and vanpools. After a head-on collision involving a car and a bus occurred in 1980, the concept became permanent, as a result, the reversible HOV lane system was built over the years since.
The HOV lanes are separated from the rest of traffic with concrete barriers, run between Downtown Houston (inbound A.M. and outbound P.M.) and the suburbs and are found on the Katy Freeway, Gulf Freeway, North Freeway, Southwest Freeway, Eastex Freeway, and Northwest Freeway.
Since METRO Express buses use them during rush hour, most routes lead to the Park and Ride lots and use "secret" HOV lane exits (often elevated T-intersections) that lead to the lots (also used by vehicles as well) without having to exit the freeway to street intersections. The HOV system will soon get an overhaul in the event of major freeway construction to take place in Houston and may have HOV lanes in both directions with the concept of HOT"

[Brewzerr68]

Originally Posted by randian

Even if true, so what? In every dimension, rail is a terrible means of moving people.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. I have yet to meet someone who actually enjoys sitting hours on end in traffic, dealing with road rage, breathing exhaust fumes, and paying high gas costs. In Houston rail makes just as much sense as air conditioning (imagine Houston without A/C!)... and this is coming from someone who grew up and lived inside loop 610 and never needed to venture much further than walking distance from my home for all my needs.

If Houston would just build a rail network to match the quality of it's freeway network then I think it would only improve everyone's opinion of the city... especially those who live there.