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After working in a terribly managed school in NYC for about eight weeks I was burned out. I was asked to work a temporary teaching position but after having high schools kids tell me to F**k myself and leave me the h**l alone I had enough. I was burned out of trying to teach them. I left and went back to working day positions in various schools. It was the one of many times I was happy to be a substitute teacher while working for the city of New York.
I love these ignorants that can say nothing but "teachers get so much time off". Blah, blah, blah. Think of something else to come back with.
Having off for approximately 3 or 4 months of the year is a pretty BIG deal to most people in any profession. Consider what your reaction might be if your summer break, spring break, and Christmas breaks were to be taken away from you....then you will better understand why we ignorants keep bringing it into this discussion. At least you have big heart and love us anyway.
No I don't "love you anyway".
Here's a thought you may not have considered. The amount of teachers who work summer school for, my gosh, EXTRA MONEY. where are their summers now? Trust me, if they didn't need the money, they wouldn't bother. But some do it because they love teaching that much.
And has it ever occured to you that we're expected back in the classroom at least a week to two weeks before the end of summer break? This does not include whatever time is spent prepping for the first month of the year. Get it?
Here's a thought you may not have considered. The amount of teachers who work summer school for, my gosh, EXTRA MONEY. where are their summers now? Trust me, if they didn't need the money, they wouldn't bother. But some do it because they love teaching that much.
And has it ever occured to you that we're expected back in the classroom at least a week to two weeks before the end of summer break? This does not include whatever time is spent prepping for the first month of the year. Get it?
Yup. August is pretty much prep month. Get lesson plans written, trial labs, do seating charts, write welcome letters to the kids in my classes, andget my room set up for next year (we empty our rooms at the end of each year for painting and other maintenance). July is pretty much my vacation and it's over.
August isn't bad though. I can read and work on my laptop poolside.
I'm all for teachers getting a fair salary, but maybe part of the problem is not that teachers aren't getting paid enough (some are, some aren't) but that other professions are getting paid too much. And again, I know that this thread is about teacher burnout in particular, but when it does go back to being compared to other professions I've got to say that it sounds like engineers have a pretty easy life. Six weeks real vacation? Unlimited sick time? Eight hour days with no work at home? It would be tough to leave a job like that. Most professional jobs come with two weeks vacation (plus more, if you're lucky, after you've worked there years and years), limited sick time, and you're expected to put in time outside of the office. For many people, including those in lower and middle salary brackets, those "8 hour days" are not the reality. Obviously that includes teachers, too.
The problem here is a culture that doesn't approve of breaks or vacation. While some approaches to professional burn-out are going to be career-specific, some of these issues are broader American problems, not teacher-specific. I've still got to wonder if teachers would have more traction addressing some of these issues at a larger level if there was more attention to the universal issues rather than constant pointing out about how much "worse" teachers have it than everyone else. Sure, they have it worse than many professions, but they also have it a lot better than many, too.
As with any other profession, though, we shouldn't extrapolate wholecloth from one person's wistful recollection. Based on the structural engineers among my acquaintance (I don't recall what kind of engineering she was in-- chemical, maybe?), she had one heck of a sweet deal. Further, Ivory left engineering to go into teaching at a time when a lot of employers hadn't yet started cutting back. In these days of massive layoffs and 15% pay cuts, the six-weeks'-vacation people are the first out the door. The ones still working haven't seen an eight hour day in ages, and are often showing up on weekends (where they run into the architects, who never leave the studio to begin with).
Is what I'm seeing indicative of the whole professional experience? Maybe not-- Florida's one of the worst-hit spots, economically, and the construction business is hit even harder than most. Floridian structural engineers are only about as indicative of the vast array of American professionals as are, say, chemical engineers in Michigan. Drawing back onto topic, it's the same thing with the school stories-- one charter school, or even one public school system, are probably not the whole story of American education.
I'm all for teachers getting a fair salary, but maybe part of the problem is not that teachers aren't getting paid enough (some are, some aren't) but that other professions are getting paid too much. And again, I know that this thread is about teacher burnout in particular, but when it does go back to being compared to other professions I've got to say that it sounds like engineers have a pretty easy life. Six weeks real vacation? Unlimited sick time? Eight hour days with no work at home? It would be tough to leave a job like that. Most professional jobs come with two weeks vacation (plus more, if you're lucky, after you've worked there years and years), limited sick time, and you're expected to put in time outside of the office. For many people, including those in lower and middle salary brackets, those "8 hour days" are not the reality. Obviously that includes teachers, too.
The problem here is a culture that doesn't approve of breaks or vacation. While some approaches to professional burn-out are going to be career-specific, some of these issues are broader American problems, not teacher-specific. I've still got to wonder if teachers would have more traction addressing some of these issues at a larger level if there was more attention to the universal issues rather than constant pointing out about how much "worse" teachers have it than everyone else. Sure, they have it worse than many professions, but they also have it a lot better than many, too.
I did not have a difficult work life as an engineer. I worked an 8 1/2 hour day (unpaid lunch) and went home for the most part. On the rare occaisions I worked overtime, I was paid to work it. We got all UAW holidays off, had cafeteria style benefits where we could purchase up to two extra weeks vacation (I had four weeks and bought to to get six). And I made good money. I was low paid for an engineer but I'll take that trade for pretty much a 40 hour work week.
Now, engineers on launch are another story. They do work long hours but they're paid for them too. I've been in design engineering (where I worked a 48 hour work week but was paid OT for Saturdays) and test engineering where I worked my 8 hours and went home. I've also worked production where I was required to work OT but, again, I was paid for it. I really can't complain about work time or pay in engineering.
I knew going into teaching I'd work more hours as a teacher than I did as an engineer even with the summers "off". I put in more than a year of time during the school year. Personally, I'd rather spread it out and have a schedule that's closer to what I had as an engineer.
In post #203 Nedely wrote: I love these ignorants that can say nothing but "teachers get so much time off".
In post # 222 Nedely wrote: No I don't "love you anyway".
Looks like Nedely had a change of heart.
I probably should have said "I love HOW these ignorants say...." My fault there. And you're not very good at detecting sarcasm either way. At least on here. But whatever.
Maybe just maybe if teachers could learn to shout out I love the breaks and the benefits( health care, pensions etc) they might enjoy their jobs more. Just maybe.
True. I also think the problem is with teacher education programs across the country. I went to a college with a "great" teacher education program and didn't enter the classroom until my last two years of college. I didn't teach alone until student teaching. I think colleges should force prospective teachers to do x number of hours of teaching in a public school the day they start taking education courses. They also need to spend x number of hours observing a veteran teacher. Then, they go back to the college classroom and discuss how to improve their own instruction. This way, a prospective teacher spends a lot of time in a classroom and knows what to expect when they start their teaching career.
Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry true and to the extent they do that impacts how their programs are valued by those who hire teachers. Most education schools realize that but their location and the size of their program might make doing it more difficult.
Not so sure that most people going into teaching knew what they were getting into. Students going into teaching do not fully represent all of the varying schools and classrooms in the country. They tend to be students who did well in and enjoyed school and went to class with others who did. Wonder how many get a job teaching in the environment they pictured when they decided to become a teacher?
I think it would be great for prospective teachers to do some observations of teachers and get an idea of teaching from the teacher's perspective, not the student's. Medicine and physical therapy require prospective students to put in a number of hours in either volunteer or paid labor in the field before applying to school. At least they have a slight idea of what they're getting into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard
Nedely wrote:
I love these ignorants that can say nothing but "teachers get so much time off". Blah, blah, blah. Think of something else to come back with.
Having off for approximately 3 or 4 months of the year is a pretty BIG deal to most people in any profession. Consider what your reaction might be if your summer break, spring break, and Christmas breaks were to be taken away from you....then you will better understand why we ignorants keep bringing it into this discussion. At least you have big heart and love us anyway.
I agree with this completely. I would love to have two weeks off at Christmas. When my kids were little, I had to take them to day care during their Christmas vacation so their father and I could work. At times, he (an engineer of sorts) took time off too and they all went up skiing or something while good ole mom did her thing at work. I'd also enjoy a week in the spring, and a month of so at least, in the summer. Interestingly, I read an article about people who get comp time vs people who get paid overtime; each group said they would prefer the opposite! So maybe it really is true that the grass is always greener, but I for one would enjoy some of that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist
I'm all for teachers getting a fair salary, but maybe part of the problem is not that teachers aren't getting paid enough (some are, some aren't) but that other professions are getting paid too much. And again, I know that this thread is about teacher burnout in particular, but when it does go back to being compared to other professions I've got to say that it sounds like engineers have a pretty easy life. Six weeks real vacation? Unlimited sick time? Eight hour days with no work at home? It would be tough to leave a job like that. Most professional jobs come with two weeks vacation (plus more, if you're lucky, after you've worked there years and years), limited sick time, and you're expected to put in time outside of the office. For many people, including those in lower and middle salary brackets, those "8 hour days" are not the reality. Obviously that includes teachers, too.
The problem here is a culture that doesn't approve of breaks or vacation. While some approaches to professional burn-out are going to be career-specific, some of these issues are broader American problems, not teacher-specific. I've still got to wonder if teachers would have more traction addressing some of these issues at a larger level if there was more attention to the universal issues rather than constant pointing out about how much "worse" teachers have it than everyone else. Sure, they have it worse than many professions, but they also have it a lot better than many, too.
My spouse works in engineering, and every time he starts a new job (hopefully not again) he gets 2-3 weeks off. It gradually builds up to 4 or so; he's never had six weeks vacation time. Speaking of every time he gets a new job, that is one of the negatives about engineering: in some fields, e.g. telecom, the job security is nil. Someone here on CD referred to the perpetual job hunt in engineering. So I would say the tenure issue is very much a positive in teaching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite
In these days of massive layoffs and 15% pay cuts, the six-weeks'-vacation people are the first out the door. The ones still working haven't seen an eight hour day in ages, and are often showing up on weekends (where they run into the architects, who never leave the studio to begin with).
Is what I'm seeing indicative of the whole professional experience? Maybe not-- Florida's one of the worst-hit spots, economically, and the construction business is hit even harder than most. Floridian structural engineers are only about as indicative of the vast array of American professionals as are, say, chemical engineers in Michigan. Drawing back onto topic, it's the same thing with the school stories-- one charter school, or even one public school system, are probably not the whole story of American education.
This is another good point about engineering. DH now has to take so many vacation days a month, for bookkeeping purposes (vacation time owed is a liability), but then has to go in on weekends unpaid to get work done by deadline. So all is not rosy on the outside, either.
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