St. Louis Public Schools (Ferguson, Parkway: felony, lawyer, magnet schools)

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by STLviaMSP

I call that a ruining public schools thing, not a way of life thing. And it is totally unacceptable civic behavior.

Parents making decisions they deem in the best interests of their children is "..unacceptable civic behavior."

Wow. Our country really is doomed.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

Parents making decisions they deem in the best interests of their children is "..unacceptable civic behavior."

Wow. Our country really is doomed.

It may sound like an extreme case when spoken of specifically. But in the broad scope I do believe the too many people, myself included at times, want laws and regulations that benefit them personally, but not society in general. There are also those that recognize the benefit to overall society but only if the needed change does not directly impact them personally. As George Carlin put, NIMBY, Not In My Back Yard.

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by scocar

It may sound like an extreme case when spoken of specifically. But in the broad scope I do believe the too many people, myself included at times, want laws and regulations that benefit them personally, but not society in general. There are also those that recognize the benefit to overall society but only if the needed change does not directly impact them personally. As George Carlin put, NIMBY, Not In My Back Yard.

Maybe the greatest commentator on the human condition, scocar....

George Carlin - NIMBY (RUsub) - YouTube

[scocar]

^ Thanks Mike. It never gets old listening to that bit, or many others.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by scocar

It may sound like an extreme case when spoken of specifically. But in the broad scope I do believe the too many people, myself included at times, want laws and regulations that benefit them personally, but not society in general. There are also those that recognize the benefit to overall society but only if the needed change does not directly impact them personally. As George Carlin put, NIMBY, Not In My Back Yard.

Ok, but it could be argued that the civically unacceptable behavior with public schools in urban districts is not the parents who pulled their kids out but the parents whose kids are out of control, not interested in education, who have no rules or supervision at home or outside, are disruptive of class, etc. We have in STL an issue with kids playing the knockout game, which is a nice way of saying they assault and attempt to kill innocent victims. Some posters suggested the incidents involve, in particular, Roosevelt High School in the City. Is the problem the parents who live in the Roosevelt district who sent their kids to Catholic schools or somewhere else or the (minority) of parents whose kids are engaging in this activity? Which one is the civically unacceptable behavior?

[scocar]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

Ok, but it could be argued that the civically unacceptable behavior with public schools in urban districts is not the parents who pulled their kids out but the parents whose kids are out of control, not interested in education, who have no rules or supervision at home or outside, are disruptive of class, etc. We have in STL an issue with kids playing the knockout game, which is a nice way of saying they assault and attempt to kill innocent victims. Some posters suggested the incidents involve, in particular, Roosevelt High School in the City. Is the problem the parents who live in the Roosevelt district who sent their kids to Catholic schools or somewhere else or the (minority) of parents whose kids are engaging in this activity? Which one is the civically unacceptable behavior?

Clearly the more civically unacceptable behavior is the kids doing the bad things and the parents allowing it. I understand when parents pull their kids out of schools that have bad elements. I would likely do the same, if I thought it was in the best interest of my children. I just get annoyed when people then look at the test scores at those schools and blame the school, teachers, and administrators.

[aragx6]

I think the vast majority of people participating in this thread generally feel the same about this issue.

And maybe I missed it scocar, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread blaming the teachers for the problems in the city schools. If you took any of my posts as such, I apologize, and it was not intended.

There is empirical evidence to support the fact that the city has a harder time attracting and keeping talented teachers (the idea of me at 22 doing Teach for America -- which I genuinely considered -- when I had no education or experience that qualified me to teach being a perfect example of this, honestly), but that doesn't mean they are the or even a key problem with the schools. I still see this as more of an administrative/money issue than a teaching problem.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by scocar

Clearly the more civically unacceptable behavior is the kids doing the bad things and the parents allowing it. I understand when parents pull their kids out of schools that have bad elements. I would likely do the same, if I thought it was in the best interest of my children. I just get annoyed when people then look at the test scores at those schools and blame the school, teachers, and administrators.

Well, let me be clear, I do not blame the teachers or schools. I think they have almost an impossible job in the toughest, poorest urban schools. I think some of them, perhaps many of them, are doing great work in almost impossible situations.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by aragx6

I think the vast majority of people participating in this thread generally feel the same about this issue.

And maybe I missed it scocar, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread blaming the teachers for the problems in the city schools. If you took any of my posts as such, I apologize, and it was not intended.

There is empirical evidence to support the fact that the city has a harder time attracting and keeping talented teachers (the idea of me at 22 doing Teach for America -- which I genuinely considered -- when I had no education or experience that qualified me to teach being a perfect example of this, honestly), but that doesn't mean they are the or even a key problem with the schools. I still see this as more of an administrative/money issue than a teaching problem.

And there is where we disagree. I see it as more of a student body/parent problem. The empirical evidence would have to include some definition or measurement of what a "talented teacher" is. There are many teachers that have masters degrees. They know all the cool teacher lingo like spiraling, pedagogy, and differentiated instruction. They can talk the talk, and based on test scores at good schools, they seem to walk the walk. But to be a truly "talented teacher" you have to have something that college courses CANNOT teach you. You have to have an ability to relate to students. You have to get students to trust you. There is a great saying that goes: "Kids don't care what you know, until they know that you care". So it's very likely that you could have gone through Teach America, and been a better teacher in 2-3 years than many teachers that have 10 years experience and a doctorate degree. I've taught with many teachers. Those with master's degrees, usually have been worse teachers than those without. As a teacher you get a very minimal bump in pay when you get your masters degree. It's actually a poor financial decision as a teacher to get a masters degree. The ones that make that choice are usually trying to get into administration, where the pay bump actually warrants the money spent to get the masters degree. So they are teachers that don't really want to remain teachers. I'm willing to bet these "empirical studies" are basing "talented" on education level. Well I can tell you that if that is the case then the evidence is meaningless.

[flynavyj]

I'm sorry, but when my wife is teaching 7th and 8th grade mathematics to a bunch of 20-30 year old college students because they never received the fundamentals during their primar education, there is clearly a problem! This problem is evidenced by the administrations, faculty, parents, and students, plus the policies of the various public education venues that ALLOWED these children to be passed on to the next grade level instead of forcing remedial education when it could have done some good. I can't imagine having four mathematics courses to complete before being allowed and deemed capable of taking college algebra!