St. Louis Incorrectly Rated America's Most Dangerous City (Florissant, Maryland Heights: homes, income)

[flynavyj]

That is an awesome photo! And yes, i do know that North St. Louis is a particular neighborhood and not a geographical location of St. Louis, jeez some people, they see St. Ann, MO under location and think the guy hasn't been around, lol.

For reference a good friend of mine purchased a warehouse on 13th street from the city of St. Louis for the grand total of $1.00 and rehabbed it into an awesome 2500+ SF home, including a 3 car garage and about 4000-5000 SF of unfinished workspace...absolutely awesome. And during my childhood my father managed the bank at North Florissant and Montgomery Ave. The area in the picture along 14th street is pretty awesome, but the surrounding area has a WAYS to go. I can remember going to crown candy during the mid 90's and thinking the food was great, but the locale left something to be desired, SEVERELY (ps every subsequent trip to crown candy has shown improvements in the area...i think i've been there about 10 times or so over the years). But i could see the potential from the old vacant storefronts and tree lined streets (specifically around St. Louis Ave and Blair) there was one small section i believe West of STL Ave that was particularly cool looking, but in it's old state made me think i was in Haiti.

My friend who moved to ONSL specifically cited that there were numerous police officers who lived within walking distance, and these officers described the neighborhood as very safe. However, the number of vacant lots, abandoned buildings, and barred windows make me think this neighborhood has a long way to go before becoming the next Soulard, South grand, or Benton Park.

The good thing is there's a St. Louis Staple (crown candy) right in the heart of the neighborhood. Improving one street is a nice step in the right direction for improving that section of the city, but if it stops there, you'll have a nice little niche carved out in North St. Louis that is surrounded by Baghdad. If that happens, i say "hold the fort!"

[Sean at Old North]

Originally Posted by flynavyj

That is an awesome photo!... a good friend of mine purchased a warehouse on 13th street from the city of St. Louis for the grand total of $1.00 and rehabbed it into an awesome 2500+ SF home, including a 3 car garage and about 4000-5000 SF of unfinished workspace...absolutely awesome.
The area in the picture along 14th street is pretty awesome... (ps every subsequent trip to crown candy has shown improvements in the area)... i could see the potential from the old vacant storefronts and tree lined streets (specifically around St. Louis Ave and Blair)...
My friend who moved to ONSL specifically cited that there were numerous police officers who lived within walking distance, and these officers described the neighborhood as very safe...
The good thing is there's a St. Louis Staple (crown candy) right in the heart of the neighborhood. Improving one street is a nice step in the right direction for improving that section of the city, but if it stops there..."

Thanks for acknowledging all of those cool parts of the Old North St. Louis story. And don't worry, it's not going to stop with "improving one street." In fact, that one street (and the 27 buildings that got rehabbed in the process - how many other neighborhoods in the city or the county have had that much development under way at one time?) wouldn't have happened if several other ingredients of a strong and viable neighborhood weren't present first, including a track record of a lot of investments by an active and engaged community and a very effective community-based development organization.

The next time you're in Old North, stop in at the Old North St. Louis Restoration Group at 2700 N. 14th Street (just down the street from Crown Candy) and ask about the comprehensive, neighborhood-wide revitalization work going on throughout Old North. And if you can't make it in person, you can always check it out online at www.ONSL.org.

[DespicableMe]

Originally Posted by Sean at Old North

Which neighborhoods do you have in mind? Do you have any reason to believe that the community shown in the photo is any less safe than areas where you feel comfortable? I've heard Meacham Park in Kirkwood is tough, but I wouldn't use that or the shootings that happened at Kirkwood City Hall a couple years ago as a point of reference for all things Kirkwood.

I do not have a particular neighborhood in mind but still you can't compare Old North St Louis to meacham park. Meacham park is an area with low income residents and it has a not so great vibe but I haven't heard of any serious crime there in the 8 or so months I've been living in Kirkwood.

[aragx6]

^What serious crime have you heard occuring in Old North St. Louis? Again, we're talking about one particular city neighborhood.

[DespicableMe]

Nothing at all, its just a nature conservatory preserved for bunny rabbits.

[aragx6]

^Did you read what I said, seriously? I am literally only speaking of the very small neighborhood just north of downtown. It's a neighborhood. You know like Soulard. A neighborhood.

Where is the disconnect here?

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by Sean at Old North

Thanks for acknowledging all of those cool parts of the Old North St. Louis story. And don't worry, it's not going to stop with "improving one street." In fact, that one street (and the 27 buildings that got rehabbed in the process - how many other neighborhoods in the city or the county have had that much development under way at one time?) wouldn't have happened if several other ingredients of a strong and viable neighborhood weren't present first, including a track record of a lot of investments by an active and engaged community and a very effective community-based development organization.

The next time you're in Old North, stop in at the Old North St. Louis Restoration Group at 2700 N. 14th Street (just down the street from Crown Candy) and ask about the comprehensive, neighborhood-wide revitalization work going on throughout Old North. And if you can't make it in person, you can always check it out online at www.ONSL.org.

I'm glad you are touting that neighborhood. I honestly think the city, especially the north side, is going to have to improve one neighborhood at a time. I'm going to make a point to get down there soon to check it out and to have a BLT and milkeshake at Crown Candy.

[flynavyj]

I happened to mention the renovations along 14th street to a friend of mine, his words "it's like putting lipstick on a pig". I think that's a little harsh in that any movement in the right direction is good movement, but his basic tune includes "if you don't improve the public school system you're going to have a very limited number of "good" residents moving in". He's a little jaded, but in a sense i agree...it's one of the biggest drawbacks on city living.

PS, got to hear on Mark Reardon today about an article in i believe Men's Health, which listed the top 100 cities for men, taking into account activities, longevity, and general health....St. Louis ranked number 100...So I guess we can look at that in two lights, either one: St. Louis is in the top 100 places for a man to live. Or Two: St. Louis is the worst city for a man to live out of the 100 Men's Health magazine chose. lol....What's your perspective.

Also, does anyone still have plans for how to improve the Northside further? Just hope the progression expands further West or South?

I think personally I'd like to see the improvements push further East along I-70 until the interstate turns south through downtown, while also pushing further South and pressing into the high-rent area of Washington Ave. I guess if there's good news, it's that reviving that entire section would only be approximately 4 Sq. Miles, and with that it'd push right into Washington Ave.

[aragx6]

If the neighborhood schools in south city neighborhoods like Tower Grove and Holly Hills aren't a deterrent to city living for those who live there, then I can't see why ONSL should be any different.

What I mean to say is that, while good schools are absolutely a deterrent to some families who might otherwise want to move to the city, there's certainly good quality folks living in the gentrified neighborhoods of south city and obviously they chose the area in spite of the schools.

It's clear to me it's far more about reputation, stigma and knee-jerk reactions to anything with the word north in it.

[aragx6]

I also think that when it comes to north side gentrification, what you'll probably see is extension of currently gentrified neighborhoods. I see the most hope for places on the north side that already border desirable neighborhoods -- I could imagine in 10 years young urbanites rehabbing houses north of the CWE -- things might improve up to Page.

But realistically, there is still so much of south city that can be more readily rejuvenated -- places that are less dangerous already like Dutchtown and Bevo that don't have the same stigma attached to them.

There is only so much rehab and gentrification that can take place in one city, however. St. Louisans tend to hold Chicago up as the gold standard of gentrification, but even there, there are large swaths of the city that are truly unlivable -- places many, if not most, Chicagoans have never been.

This shows that high prices and high density alone are not enough to drive gentrification. As much progress as has been made on Chicago's north side and its near west and south sides, there is still generations of gentrification left to happen.

I think we often see one neighborhood get quickly hot, but even that is usually over the course of at least five years. Groundwork was laid by the artists and the bohemians -- those who tolerance for grit and crime is higher than that of the general urbanite crowd.

I guess this is me being pessimistic. I see progress happening, but it will be limited as long as job growth in the city is at present, respectable but not amazing, levels.