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And NJ also has mile after mile of crowded suburbia with very high housing prices, long commutes and heavy traffic, etc., all because of a large population. I don't want that.
Plenty of European countries, such as Austria, have much slower population growth than South Carolina (or the US generally) and have beautiful cities, thriving economies and high quality of life. Population growth is not required for anything that I'm looking for.
The most populous county in New Jersey has 4,027 people per sq mile. The most populous county in SC has 615 per sq mile. Again, you're being quite dramatic. SC already has miles and miles of suburbia, and we already have to commute. Everyone does. It's nothing new.
High housing prices has nothing to strictly do with population. Phoenix has very affordable housing and they have 4 million people in one county. Housing prices mainly depend on supply and demand. SC is going to naturally grow. When you try to fight it and restrict housing: that's how prices rise. Just ask California.
Comparing SC with a European country is kind of ridiculous. Europe's growth is not the same as ours. Plus, we are not a country.
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Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens
NYC doesn't have to be close by for Greenville to have bad traffic/congestion, high housing prices in desirable areas, loss of undeveloped land, etc. Look at Atlanta, with a booming population. Do we want Greenville to become that? I don't think so. At least I don't.
Even with Atlanta's traffic and growth, it is one of the cheapest large metros. And Atlanta also has one of the lowest densities of any major metro area. There is still plenty of land in Atlanta, and outside the city, housing is very affordable. It may be hard to believe, but traffic is not a 24/7 nightmare.
Look at Charlotte. The population of Charlotte in 1970 was 241K. Today it's 842K. Mecklenburg County is over 1 million people. Yet Charlotte is still insanely affordable with plenty of land.
Your concept of quality of life - wealthier, more amenities, booming economy - differs from my concept of quality of life. I'll be the first to concede that some level of economic stability must exist in order to be able to enjoy life, but it shouldn't be the only or the foremost measure.
I suffer from the malady of senior citizenship, with an annoying tendency to recall the "good old days". I can remember when driving from Spartanburg to Greenville was a pleasant outing, rather than a game of Russian roulette. Or when Mt Pleasant, Murrells Inlet, and Pawleys Island each had its own unique personality, rather than simply an outcropping of the nearby "big" city. I just tend to believe the population growth has come at a very high price, measured in what we have lost. I understand change is inevitable, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily a good thing.
Sorry that it's not 1940 anymore, or whenever SC's good days were for you. Still don't understand what all has really been "lost" except for trees. I've never found driving on I 85 "pleasant."
Mt Pleasant still has its own personality to me. I've gone to Mt Pleasant countless times to enjoy the day and traffic was typical. Some days it could be a little heavy, other days you could practically speed down 17. I worked in Mt Pleasant and my commute was fine.
You make it sound like Mt Pleasant and Murrells has become the middle of Los Angeles. I am honestly chuckling a little bit. South Carolina has came a long way imo, I think the future is bright for the state. I'm sorry you didn't think it's for the better.
I am a Greenville native. Family has been there since the 1800s, and in the Upstate since before the Revolution. Try again.
Well then I should hope you are encouraging civic and political leaders in the Upstate to stop promoting the area as aggressively as they are and to take a much less ambitious approach to economic development.
The most populous county in New Jersey has 4,027 people per sq mile. The most populous county in SC has 615 per sq mile. Again, you're being quite dramatic. SC already has miles and miles of suburbia, and we already have to commute. Everyone does. It's nothing new.
First, you're comparing Newark, NJ (a city with high density due to blocks and blocks of low-income housing packed together) with a very large county in SC that has both (sub)urban and undeveloped areas. That's not relevant. The correct comparison would be to compare the population density of suburban areas of SC with the population density of suburban areas of NJ. Those densities are similar.
Second, you ever lived in the Northeast and dealt with commutes there? I have. A 20-minute drive with relatively light traffic (Greenville's standard commute) is OK. A significantly longer commute, juggling public transportation and very heavy traffic, is not OK. An hour to go 15 miles in NJ is excruciating.
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Originally Posted by Jandrew5
High housing prices has nothing to strictly do with population. Phoenix has very affordable housing and they have 4 million people in one county. Housing prices mainly depend on supply and demand. SC is going to naturally grow. When you try to fight it and restrict housing: that's how prices rise. Just ask California.
California has strict zoning that limits where housing is built. I've never stated that I want that. I want to limit population growth. SC doesn't have to add 1 million new people every 15-20 years; that growth can be reduced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5
Comparing SC with a European country is kind of ridiculous. Europe's growth is not the same as ours. Plus, we are not a country.
Not ridiculous at all. The point of the comparison was to show that population growth is not a requirement for a place to have beautiful cities and thriving economies.
SC isn't a country, but it has more rights in some respects than EU member states have. Austria isn't a fully-sovereign country, either, due to the EU. So what?
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Originally Posted by Jandrew5
Even with Atlanta's traffic and growth, it is one of the cheapest large metros. And Atlanta also has one of the lowest densities of any major metro area. There is still plenty of land in Atlanta, and outside the city, housing is very affordable. It may be hard to believe, but traffic is not a 24/7 nightmare.
Look at Charlotte. The population of Charlotte in 1970 was 241K. Today it's 842K. Mecklenburg County is over 1 million people. Yet Charlotte is still insanely affordable with plenty of land.
Atlanta and Charlotte are relatively inexpensive for HOUSING. Transportation consumes a huge portion of family budgets in sprawling Sunbelt cities. So if you add housing and transportation costs together, the total costs are pretty steep.
I have spent a big portion of my life living in Charlotte, and living in large Northeastern cities (downtowns). My total fixed costs were about the same in both places. Housing is a lot more in the Northeast, but transportation (where I lived) is lower because you can walk or use mass transit. Housing is less in Charlotte, but you have to spend a lot more on transportation. I don't want that for Greenville. It'd be nice to have a place where neither housing nor transportation is expensive.
The going rate for upper-middle class places in central Charlotte is $350/sf--much higher than in Greenville. Do you want to subject Greenville to that?
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Originally Posted by Mutiny77
Well then I should hope you are encouraging civic and political leaders in the Upstate to stop promoting the area as aggressively as they are and to take a much less ambitious approach to economic development.
Or you could just move to Greenwood or Gaffney.
Upstate Forever is a wonderful organization.
Telling people that they should move so that others can move to their hometowns is an extremely obnoxious and arrogant statement. I could say, "if you want to experience rapid population growth and the resulting changes, move to Los Angeles", but I won't--that'd be obnoxious as well.
Last edited by PuppiesandKittens; 12-23-2017 at 06:10 AM..
Sorry that it's not 1940 anymore, or whenever SC's good days were for you. Still don't understand what all has really been "lost" except for trees.
Well, not quite that senior , but don't diss me too badly for missing some of the good stuff. And if you don't understand what's been lost, you're probably better off, and I sure don't think I could explain it to your satisfaction. Regardless, good or bad, the migration celebration is in full swing and there's no stoppin' it. Merry Christmas!
And you have no issues with their aggressive promotion of the region which is obviously playing a significant role in the Upstate's rapid growth, which you lament?
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Telling people that they should move so that others can move to their hometowns is an extremely obnoxious and arrogant statement. I could say, "if you want to experience rapid population growth and the resulting changes, move to Los Angeles", but I won't--that'd be obnoxious as well.
What I'm telling you is that you can't have it both ways. If you don't like the rapid growth occurring in your neck of the woods and you aren't willing to voice your criticisms regarding the ways area leaders are actively encouraging this rapid growth, then the obvious solution is to move. There are other parts of the Upstate that are in no danger of experiencing the issues that come along with rapid growth any time soon and I mentioned two of them. You call what I said "obnoxious" and "arrogant" but it's logical. Get out of your feelings; nobody is personally attacking you.
And you have no issues with their aggressive promotion of the region which is obviously playing a significant role in the Upstate's rapid growth, which you lament?
What I'm telling you is that you can't have it both ways. If you don't like the rapid growth occurring in your neck of the woods and you aren't willing to voice your criticisms regarding the ways area leaders are actively encouraging this rapid growth, then the obvious solution is to move. There are other parts of the Upstate that are in no danger of experiencing the issues that come along with rapid growth any time soon and I mentioned two of them. You call what I said "obnoxious" and "arrogant" but it's logical. Get out of your feelings; nobody is personally attacking you.
Do you even have a clue what Upstate Forever does? You could try looking on its website.
Well then I should hope you are encouraging civic and political leaders in the Upstate to stop promoting the area as aggressively as they are and to take a much less ambitious approach to economic development.
Or you could just move to Greenwood or Gaffney.
Or McCormick county. It's not growing and has very little people. I agree.
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, but don't diss me too badly for missing some of the good stuff. And if you don't understand what's been lost, you're probably better off, and I sure don't think I could explain it to your satisfaction. Regardless, good or bad, the migration celebration is in full swing and there's no stoppin' it. Merry Christmas! 
