South Carolina Passes 5 Million (Greenville, Clemson: public schools, tax, costs)
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It’s unstaffed due to weak demand. You could have more rail options but it would still be empty and no cars would be taken off the road. Unlike New York, Greenville, Atlanta, and Charlotte are actually affordable. Nobody is forced to live 2 hours out of town.
I like the idea of trains, but realistically I’m not going to use them. It’s still way too slow. Even express buses are far slower than the most gridlocked commute. Getting too and from the bus/ train station and adding a couple stops turns a 30 minute trip into an hour or more.
People fleeing high tax states would have to vote themselves the same high taxes they were fleeing if they want to make every imaginable form of transportation available to everyone.
I'm definitely not looking for another argument online today, but Amtrak--whether from Charlotte, NYC or elsewhere, is for long-distance travel, not daily commuting. (Seating, frequency of stops and ticket prices are all geared at longer-distance travelers, not daily commuters, which other railroads handle.)
So any additional Amtrak trains through Greenville would be for longer-distance travel.
I agree that there would be pretty much zero market in Greenville for commuter trains.
I think that there would be plenty of demand in Greenville for an additional Amtrak train or two, though. I take the overnight Amtrak train every now and then, and it's chronically sold out between NYC and Atlanta, and and sleeping car fares pretty high. Amtrak is also working on extending the length of the Greenville train, to add more sleeping car space (indicating heavy demand).
Last edited by PuppiesandKittens; 12-28-2017 at 06:40 PM..
NC has done a great job of improving commuter rail service between Charlotte and Raleigh with a dozen or so smaller cities in between having stops.. which takes pressure off of 85 (or it will in the future with improved rail service). SC may want to explore a similar option from Greenville to Charleston at some point....This could be combination of "interburban" trains that run from suburb to city and "intrastate" rail that runs from one end of the state to the other on existing but improved tracks. I believe Rock Hill has the advantage on the rail front because its in the Charlotte Metro...
It's a three-hour train ride between Raleigh and Charlotte, and due to how relatively expensive tickets are, it's still just a long-distance travel alternative, not a commuter rail. There are plans to implement a commuter rail between Raleigh and Durham though.
I think that, if SC wants to prepare for the future, they need to start exploring alternative forms of transportation. It doesn't matter whether it's light rail, street car, bus service, or something else, but they need to offer more ways to get around than just more lanes, because those will fill up once more people move in.
Jandrew, none of your points accurately or adequately respond to mine. Great that you had a 15 minute commute, but the average commute there is 40 minutes. $1000 a month will get a tiny apartment in uptown Charlotte, and $350 per square foot- or more- is the going rate in in-town neighborhoods (for Charlotte’s equivalent of Jones Avenue, and a lot more for Charlotte’s equivalent of Crescent Avenue. I know- I am a landlord there. Etc., etc., etc.
Too bad that some people want South Carolina to become the next Atlanta, Houston or Los Angeles, instead of having moderate growth that results in enhanced opportunity for all while maintaining and enriching the local quality of life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens
NYC doesn't have to be close by for Greenville to have bad traffic/congestion, high housing prices in desirable areas, loss of undeveloped land, etc. Look at Atlanta, with a booming population. Do we want Greenville to become that? I don't think so. At least I don't.
That cause Metro Atlanta is nearly 6 million. Greenville is growing fast but it won't be that size anytime soon at least not in 50 years to 60's. Your talking about Atlanta size problem before Greenville is Raleigh or Nashville size that why change seem so radical. cause the comparisons you are making are too radical.
So your sort of jumping ahead too much too fast.
The next step before even mentioning cities Atlanta and Houston sizes are the Nashville, Raleigh, Salt Lake, OKC and etc this comparisons first is less radical. As Greenville and Charleston grow over the decades they will be more ready to handle the next set of issues. It all won't happen at once.
Also cities and states are more conscious of smarter growth now then they were in the later half of last century.
It's a three-hour train ride between Raleigh and Charlotte, and due to how relatively expensive tickets are, it's still just a long-distance travel alternative, not a commuter rail. There are plans to implement a commuter rail between Raleigh and Durham though.
I think that, if SC wants to prepare for the future, they need to start exploring alternative forms of transportation. It doesn't matter whether it's light rail, street car, bus service, or something else, but they need to offer more ways to get around than just more lanes, because those will fill up once more people move in.
Pretty much every city in SC offers some kind of bus service. It’s not popular but it exist. Rapid bus transit still requires a dictated lane and still takes twice as long as a car.
You have to be careful to not over spend on public transit at the current population levels as there’s a huge risk in becoming a white elephant. With average commute times less than 30 minutes, extensive public transit offers few advantages for the cost. Even Disney refuses to expand their monorail despite having no NIMBY’s and 100% ownership of the entire property.
Pretty much every city in SC offers some kind of bus service. It’s not popular but it exist. Rapid bus transit still requires a dictated lane and still takes twice as long as a car.
You have to be careful to not over spend on public transit at the current population levels as there’s a huge risk in becoming a white elephant. With average commute times less than 30 minutes, extensive public transit offers few advantages for the cost. Even Disney refuses to expand their monorail despite having no NIMBY’s and 100% ownership of the entire property.
Columbia’s bus system is actually quite well used. 2.5 million rides. Or if you use it twice a day, 1.25. That means everyone in the metro rode the bus at least once or twice if you think about it. That’s why they just got an entire new fleet. And I don’t know about the whole average commute thing. I live 10 miles from downtown. It takes me 15 minutes to get there or back on a good day. Usually though I will sit in traffic for an hour trying to get home or to work.
It's a three-hour train ride between Raleigh and Charlotte, and due to how relatively expensive tickets are, it's still just a long-distance travel alternative, not a commuter rail. There are plans to implement a commuter rail between Raleigh and Durham though.
I think that, if SC wants to prepare for the future, they need to start exploring alternative forms of transportation. It doesn't matter whether it's light rail, street car, bus service, or something else, but they need to offer more ways to get around than just more lanes, because those will fill up once more people move in.
Let me change my terminology Not commuter rail but more so Regional Rail which is more designed for those traveling for business periodically or leisure .....but your points are accurate and well taken. Once example could be to require state workers to use it traveling between Charlotte and Raleigh and points in between. No need for the state to pay for the transit and to drive a state vehicle ... lol. I'm sure they would love it and it would be still be free
I'm first to agree that we should not overspend on public transportation--waste and inefficiency harm public support, so any public transit advocate should want to spend carefully for that reason alone.
I think (and I may be wrong) that generally, infrastructure spending helps economic growth, more or less. SC has good airports and its highways are cost-effective, but its passenger rail lines haven't received nearly the investment, and they don't provide nearly the service, that you would see in similarly-populated areas around the US.
Washington-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte-Greenville-Atlanta-Birmingham is really a megapolis, but from Charlotte south, it's served by only one passenger train per day. That's inadequate in that it leads to wasted time and costs by causing trips that are best served by rail to be done by car and air. So I would be in favor of increasing investment (or spending or however you want to call it) in order to get a few more trains per day (maybe one every 4 hours?) on the Charlotte-Greenville-Atlanta-Birmingham corridor. That would just bring the level of service up to where it would be if the corridor were elsewhere in the US. That would help the economy run more efficiently. For example (and this is a selfish comment), I would be able to get more work done if I could take the train from Greenville to Charlotte instead of having to dive.
And I'm not some free-spending liberal; I am a Libertarian.
I'm first to agree that we should not overspend on public transportation--waste and inefficiency harm public support, so any public transit advocate should want to spend carefully for that reason alone.
I think (and I may be wrong) that generally, infrastructure spending helps economic growth, more or less. SC has good airports and its highways are cost-effective, but its passenger rail lines haven't received nearly the investment, and they don't provide nearly the service, that you would see in similarly-populated areas around the US.
Washington-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte-Greenville-Atlanta-Birmingham is really a megapolis, but from Charlotte south, it's served by only one passenger train per day. That's inadequate in that it leads to wasted time and costs by causing trips that are best served by rail to be done by car and air. So I would be in favor of increasing investment (or spending or however you want to call it) in order to get a few more trains per day (maybe one every 4 hours?) on the Charlotte-Greenville-Atlanta-Birmingham corridor. That would just bring the level of service up to where it would be if the corridor were elsewhere in the US. That would help the economy run more efficiently. For example (and this is a selfish comment), I would be able to get more work done if I could take the train from Greenville to Charlotte instead of having to dive.
And I'm not some free-spending liberal; I am a Libertarian.
All true but bear in mind that improvement of the rails doesn't just help passenger train service.. it also improves the reliability, safety and efficiency of freight too.. which benefits business and commerce. Any improvement to the rails should have some level of private investment from the railroad owners since they can stand to benefit by increasing their capacity and speed. It also would get more trucks off of the highways which benefits motorists... Freight trains will eventually become automated but only if the lines are improved/modernized..You no longer have brakemen that have to jump off and throw a switch for the train to change tracks nor do you have the little red cabooses behind trains full of brakemen anymore to handled similar tasks... For CSX that is all handled by computer in Jacksonville for most of the SE USA. They already have the technology but the infrastructure, grade crossings safety technology, etc make it difficult implement. (and likely whatever union Engineers and Brakeman belong to also )
I was talking to a guy that worked as a yard master for CSX. He indicated that when you see a freight train parked out in the middle of no where or blocking the tracks in some town.. often time it may be because the engineer has maxed out their time behind the controls and has to wait on relief or rest a certain amount of hours just like truck drivers..since many trains are driven solo or they are waiting for another train to pass. If they are automated and double tracked in strategic locations.. that would eliminate that entirely....
On a totally unrelated note.. I had the opportunity to ride the Amtrak Auto Train from Lorton VA to Sanford FL. It only makes one stop in Florence SC where the north and south bound trains meet and the crews change and head back in the opposite direction. It leaves either end late in the afternoon and the next morning you are pulling into your destination. The on time performance is amazing.. probably better than most trains outside of the Northeast Corridor. I don't know if that is because it runs overnight or because its given priority. The train can reach over two or three miles long because of the car transports. At any rate.. it is like being on a cruise ship with a call for dinner and breakfast during the trip. If you can afford the room.. that is the best way to go with a small family. I say all of this to say.. it goes back to the hey day of rail travel where it was efficient and fairly top rate service...which I know is difficult to replicate today and your car is with you when you arrive.. cant beat that ...
Last edited by Woodlands; 01-02-2018 at 02:07 PM..
Norfolk Southern just invested around $2.5B to increase capacity for large freight trains on the "Crescent Corridor" between the Northeast and the Southeast. Based on chronic delays for passenger trains between Atlanta and Greenville, it seems to me that there still isn't enough capacity for both freight and passenger needs on the line.
I've seen Norfolk Southern's dealings with others for passenger needs, and the railroad (in my view, rightfully so) will look for public funds for train improvements if a public operator wants to run passenger trains. So I'd expect NS would want SC to pay for trackwork to allow more passenger trains regardless in any event.
I don't see the SC legislature being willing to do that. Somehow, the Republican view of transportation is that transportation should be a free market, which Republicans view as including significant tax dollars spent on roads and airports but only allowing private sector funds for rail. Seems illogical to me, but that's the response I'd expect from the legislature.
I don't see the SC legislature being willing to do that. Somehow, the Republican view of transportation is that transportation should be a free market, which Republicans view as including significant tax dollars spent on roads and airports but only allowing private sector funds for rail. Seems illogical to me, but that's the response I'd expect from the legislature.
That is because it doesn't make sense to use taxpayer money to fund another transportation option for middle class people when one has already been provided in the form of roads. Car drivers already have to pay for a car, insurance, maintenance, tires, DMV fees, gas, etc. Nobody ever suggests that these things be funded by tax payers.
If there is heavy demand for mass transit, then trains should be able to turn a profit.
I believe airport funding is primarily through passenger fees and taxes, not general taxation.
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