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From a native Californian who has visited many other areas over the years, I can tell you that California and in particular Northern Ca. is full of arrogant, "wanna be upper echelon," politically correct to a fault parasites. Unfortunately, this once gorgeous area has turned into an overlegislated, restrictive prison. Smog testing? It doesn't even exist in some other states. Why is it here? Because TOO MANY PEOPLE are here..overcrowded..try driving on Hy 80 sometime; in the East Bay Area, SF area, Hy 101 to Santa Rosa...and there is so much building going on, particularly in the northern bay area counties, that it is impossible to navigate from point A to point B..If you enjoy crowding, snobbery or outright (snobs and slobs) lawbreaking under the protection of spinless liberal policies, this is the place for you. If you want sanity, less laws and restrictions on your personal pursuits, property, etc..this is definitely NOT the place for you. The gov. is in your pocket constantly, property taxes, supposedly protected under Prop 13, continually rise due to Bond measure after Bond measure being passed by those who ARE NOT property owners....bonds paid for thru increases to individual property taxes...This is a welfare, socially engineered state. If you are stupid enough to be successful; woe to you as you will be paying for everyone else who is not and who expects you to foot their bills, their illegal occupation, their children, their house payments (thru HUD, "state housing," etc.) All the while, your freedoms are being taken away thru legislative measures designed to curtail your effect on an already overcrowded environment....think not? Consider rent control in S.F. and that, if a property owner wishes to move into their own property they MUST pay a moving expense ($1,000) to EACH occupant of the building (not just wage earning adults, no; ALL occupants) and give an extremely long notice to vacate....AND, during the tenants' occupancy, rents cannot be raised to meet the raises in property taxes and other costs of maintaining the property, insurance, etc. Think about increasing sales taxes, limits on your movement in your personal vehicle, restrictions to the type of vehicle you drive, overly controlling single family building permits while, concurrently, the "powers that be" (building depts., planning depts.,boards of council and supervisor) constantly rubber stamp massive development project after massive development project...you lose, they (supposedly) gain. Think about it...the more people crowded into an area equal less freedoms; more restrictions...and higher cost.
And, while this is all ongoing, Calif. and particularly the S.F. Bay Area, is becoming a third world country...more taking than giving w/no constraints, at all, on this deliterious effect on the fabric of this society.
Oh well, too bad. So, move here...if you haven't thought it over. You'll be moving into the world of the very wealthy or very poor. No problem with that except; if you're working middle class; you'll be paying for all of it...tax breaks for the rich, gov. give away programs for the poor..w/no attempt to monitor either end of the spectrum. Gorgeous environment inhabited by ignorant, humans...Too bad.
Last edited by Kathy LuckyCat; 11-12-2006 at 11:07 AM..
I would like to give you another perspective from the other side of the country. I've recently spent two weeks in California. Yes, every place has it's set of problems and living there is always different from just visiting.
I'm a South African who recently moved to Orlando. I've travelled around the USA extensively, and I can tell you, the most "intelligent" places in the USA are New York and California, so if you want to find less arrogant, more worldly-wise citizens, you may have to go all the way to Vancouver. Florida is a cesspool of stupidity and the people are far more aggressive, arrogant and the "stupid-factor" is higher than any other place I've been to worldwide.
Yes, traffic is bad in SF, I know, I had the Bayshore afternoon experience! But, they can actually drive. I almost get killed everyday on the roads in Orlando, the people haven't got a clue behind the wheel.
Trust me, SF isn't perfect, LA even less so, but it may just get worse the further you cross into the rest of the USA over the Sierras. California was actually one of the few places in the USA that wasn't totally off-putting. Yes, it is beautiful too. Orlando is about as pretty as a mouse's armpit. California is expensive, however, I'm finding Florida is catching up fast! I'd rather live in an expensive place that has some lifestyle, some culture and beautiful surroundings, than pay to live close to Mickey.
QUOTE: Unfortunately, this once gorgeous area has turned into an overlegislated, restrictive prison. ..and there is so much building going on, particularly in the northern bay area counties, that it is impossible to navigate from point A to point B....This is a welfare, socially engineered state. If you are stupid enough to be successful; woe to you as you will be paying for everyone else who is not and who expects you to foot their bills, their illegal occupation, their children, their house payments (thru HUD, "state housing," etc.) . Think about increasing sales taxes, limits on your movement in your personal vehicle, restrictions to the type of vehicle you drive, overly controlling single family building permits while, concurrently, the "powers that be" (building depts., planning depts.,boards of council and supervisor) constantly rubber stamp massive development project after massive development project....
And, while this is all ongoing, Calif. and particularly the S.F. Bay Area, is becoming a third world country...more taking than giving w/no constraints, at all, on this deliterious effect on the fabric of this society.(end quote)
I couldn't have said it better!!!!! I have lived in Contra Costa County (east of the tunnel) for all of my 57 years. The changes I have seen and experienced. Traffic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Welfare lifestyles!!!!!!!!!!! Gangs!!!!!!!!!!!!! General take-care-of-me attitude proliferated by Liberals in charge. 50% of the homeless are there by choice. They choose substance abuses over housing and work. WORK? that's a 4-letter word to these people. (think Maynard G Krebs).
The working middle-class has fewer rights and priveleges than the incoming illegal aliens that are inundating our state.
I can hear those bleeding heart Liberals now: love it or leave it! Well baby I'm outta here in 2007 when my house is built in another state. Leaving a job of 37 years, family and deteriorating morals and geography.
When all the responsible, working, ethical people leave this state, who will feed and house the by-choice downtrodden? Our local Democrats!
Arrogance - That is a subjective perspective that changes from person to person. Hence, that is not really a quantitative yard stick to measure anything by.
Taxes - Every election, people keep voting in more taxes for project/initiatives. I am not sure if they really understand the ramifications of these taxes or not. But they happily keep adding more to the taxes they are already burdened with.
Traffic - It is definitely bad in the Bay Area. It keeps getting worse every year.
Work - I can't speak for where you are or what industry you're in. But the pervasive culture in the Bay Area is work, work, work, work 'til you drop dead. And, you must work if you wish to pay for your super high mortgage, rents, etc. There are people who hold 2 jobs just to make by. In fact, I would say that if you don't like to work, the Bay Area isn't for you. You won't be able to survive here without money.
Gangs - Yes, there are gangs and it's already noted in news reports that the gang culture is growing in the south bay, particularly in San Jose. There's a huge influx of Sureño gang members coming into San Jose from SoCal and Mexico. They clash big time with the Norteño gang members who have always been there in San Jose. There's an upsurge in violence in gang borders around San Jose because of the Norteño-Sureño rivalry.
Third World Country - I think that's quite an exaggeration there. Bay Area and CA isn't turning into a Third World Country at all. Have you even set foot into a true Third World country, say Bangladesh? Try taking a trip there or any one of the true Third World countries and you'd come back with a newfound appreciation of the US. What is true is that the Bay Area has become a place where the middle class have a much harder time surviving because all the taxes and high home prices are hitting them square in the face. The mega rich are exempt from these issues since they have $$$ and can live anywhere and do anything. The very poor are taken cared of by the state. The Bay Area is a microcosm for what the US will/might eventually turn into for middle class people as prices begin to skyrocket and wages stagnate.
Smog - Have you been to states that don't have smog checks? Have you driven behind cars and trucks that are happily spewing out black smoke? If yes, you'd have a newfound appreciation for smog checks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy LuckyCat
From a native Californian who has visited many other areas over the years, I can tell you that California and in particular Northern Ca. is full of arrogant, "wanna be upper echelon," politically correct to a fault parasites. Unfortunately, this once gorgeous area has turned into an overlegislated, restrictive prison. Smog testing? It doesn't even exist in some other states. Why is it here? Because TOO MANY PEOPLE are here..overcrowded..try driving on Hy 80 sometime; in the East Bay Area, SF area, Hy 101 to Santa Rosa...and there is so much building going on, particularly in the northern bay area counties, that it is impossible to navigate from point A to point B..If you enjoy crowding, snobbery or outright (snobs and slobs) lawbreaking under the protection of spinless liberal policies, this is the place for you. If you want sanity, less laws and restrictions on your personal pursuits, property, etc..this is definitely NOT the place for you. The gov. is in your pocket constantly, property taxes, supposedly protected under Prop 13, continually rise due to Bond measure after Bond measure being passed by those who ARE NOT property owners....bonds paid for thru increases to individual property taxes...This is a welfare, socially engineered state...Think about it...the more people crowded into an area equal less freedoms; more restrictions...and higher cost. And, while this is all ongoing, Calif. and particularly the S.F. Bay Area, is becoming a third world country...more taking than giving w/no constraints, at all, on this deliterious effect on the fabric of this society.
Last edited by speedoflight; 11-14-2006 at 12:47 PM..
I would have to say that perhaps, just perhaps, I was a bit overzealous in my terminology. However, as you stated, Speedoflight, terminology is subjective and, I suppose, those who peruse this forum will read into words whatever their individual experience dictate. Third World society has many levels; many expressions. There is not just one definition of "third world." There are many areas in San Francisco and the east bay which come close..degradation in the streets; urination and defacation in the streets, prostitution (often involving pre-teens and young teens), open drug use, babies thrown into trash recepticles, murders, meyhem, opportunistic & predatory humans feeding off others, not to mention literal starvation and homeless people perishing in the streets. This is pretty "third world."
Smog checks? These are necessary because the S.F. Bay Area is so over crowded and population concentrated. In wide open areas where one might see 10 other vehicles on freeways, smog checking, per se, is not necessary. The vehicles there are much fewer, spewing out lesser concentrations of hydro carbons thus creating less pollution into vast areas of cleaner air (cleaner by nature of the fact that there are less vehicles). Have you ever looked closely at the smog check print out? The most regulated and restricted levels are registered at 15 and 25 MPH...know why? The state knows that most people will be driving at those slower mph while they attempt to transit w/in cities or while piled up, one behind the other, in highway traffic. And most vehicles in this state, this area, are stuck in highway backup traffic for hours on end during commute hours and, lately, any time of the day. That's 15 & 25, I repeat..MPH! Smog tests are not concentrating on higher speeds...it is the idling and slowly moving traffic which is being so closely monitored via Ca. Smog Checks.
All this while those in "control" continue to allow huge, monstrous developments of piled one upon another apartments which house more drivers clogging the streets and highways. Somehow, no one who wields any power in this late great state seems to realize that their actions are turning this beautiful area into another S. Calif. replete w/all the same problems as outlined here and by other writers.
Our alternative? Live in a "planned community," where you live w/dozens of other people, piled up as sardines where all file into "mass transit (!!)" to get to work. Marching like little automatons...Live/work is another alternative and, add to that, shopping (both food and other necessities) provided in the live/work enclave and you have......plebian, peon worker bees living in controlled environments merely to stay alive...all controlled & predictable. Just think! This is an ideal touted by many "planners," developers and city/county leaders. This is actually sold to us as desirable!
fbcobrn has it right..and I concur...I am buying out of state in the next month or so and it is "bye bye" sorry state of California... Too bad; Ca. will wallow in the mindless madness it has become; run by braindead, egotistical "leaders" who care only about seeing their names in the news for some supposedly new, supposedly "smart growth" decision. 'Smart growth,' btw, is an oxymoron (coined by some moron, no doubt!)..particularly when the glass is way more than 'half' full; the cup runneth over, the theatre is full; it's SRO and the fools at the door keep on squeezing in more, even when they know it is not the right thing to do.
The lesson here: learn from past mistakes.
Last edited by Kathy LuckyCat; 11-15-2006 at 11:53 AM..
Kathy LuckyCat:
I cannot disagree with you re: crime and the degradation of some areas in SF and other Bay Area suburbs. But in all fairness, if you care to look at any other large metropolitan areas in the US and the world, you will see the same issues concerning crime, mayhem, drugs, prostitution, etc. These issues are either wide in the open or they're a little less open but they're all there. However, "Third World" in no disrespect to the countries that are truly Third World, is the not term to be used here. I have been to Third World countries and will tell you that there are many Third World countries that are classified and that term is used on them because of stats like Human Development Index, industrialization/technology index, GNP and they are not classified as Third World because they have all the many social and criminal issues you've described. As a side note, in fact, "Third World" is an out of date and rather derogatory term. These days the UN uses the term, "developing nation". A more appropriate term for the issues you've described would simply be "urban issues" or "big metropolitan issues" and even, "inner city issues". It would be highly unfair to nail these issues mainly to just CA or the SF Bay Area. Go to the NY-NJ metro area, LA-LB-Santa Ana metro area, Chicago-Joliet metro area, etc., and you will see these urban issues displayed big time. If say you don't see the issues in these other areas, I would say one is trying to not see things for what they are. I think it's incredibly important to put things into perspective.
I am not going to go into the technicalities of smog check with you. Do not compare an urban area and a rural area (which you have term "wide open areas") where the population is so much lower. All I can say is I am glad there are smog checks for I have been in metro areas in states/cities/countries where there are not smog checks and the pollution from vehicles is just awful. So again, please compare metro to metro areas.
Yes, the large CA metro areas are overcrowded (LA, 12 million; Bay Area, 4.2 million) but they are by no way as crowded as some other metro areas in the US and in the world. Look at the NY metro area (18 million people); the Chicago metro area (9 million people); the Greater Tokyo Area (35 million people); the Shanghai metro area (14 million people); the Hong Kong metro (7 million in a city state) area. What's the common denominator in all this? Large metro areas of the world are very crowded for they typically contain financial centers and jobs. If you dislike crowds, the answer is simple, move away to a small metro area, smaller city or rural areas. Thankfully, there's still a lot of picks out there for people. And yes, you will gain something for something else that you will lose.
The lesson to be learned is that you can't fit a square peg in a round hole. Meaning if you want a different lifestyle, say a home with lots of land, less crowds, less pollution, less cars, less etc., you can't expect the large metro areas to change and fit themselves around you. You have to learn to either adapt and change your needs to what the environment is about or take yourself away from the environment and go elsewhere. Even lab rats in experiments know how to change their habits to the environment they are in but unlike lab rats in a cage, you can change your environment if you wish or you can change your habits if you need to. There is no need to be bitter about anything. And even if for a while you may have found that a large metro area was once suitable for you but now because of life changes, you've decided that you need a different lifestyle, it's OK.
Each phase of our lives and where we live is meant to help us grow and change. There's no need to feel so sour about an experience. If CA isn't for you any longer, that's OK. But there's no need to diss a state or a place just because it doesn't fit you any longer. Move on and then look back and savor the experience you had for honestly, without which you would have not become the person that you are today and tomorrow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy LuckyCat
I would have to say that perhaps, just perhaps, I was a bit overzealous in my terminology. However, as you stated, Speedoflight, terminology is subjective and, I suppose, those who peruse this forum will read into words whatever their individual experience dictate. Third World society has many levels; many expressions. There is not just one definition of "third world." There are many areas in San Francisco and the east bay which come close..degradation in the streets; urination and defacation in the streets, prostitution (often involving pre-teens and young teens), open drug use, babies thrown into trash recepticles, murders, meyhem, opportunistic & predatory humans feeding off others, not to mention literal starvation and homeless people perishing in the streets. Your quote is long, I've cut it off here...
Last edited by speedoflight; 11-15-2006 at 02:18 PM..
Oh, politically correct, social speak, mamby pamby linguistic denial. It's broken...period. We (those who see the ugliness and results of poor planning of the SF Bay Area, (btw, this is the San Francisco forum, I think) are not looking for psychological dissection and analysis. Just calling it as it is. It isn't personal. The SF BayArea has become ugly and crime ridden, polluted and crowded. It isn't about whomever writes here; it's about the truth. But, I am glad there are those who do love the city and the cancer of growth that is spreading to the surrounding areas. That leaves more open spaces for those of us who don't. Your response is rather like saying there is no finite reality. Somewhere, some way, this will come to a screeching halt; either as a result of intelligent decision making or by catastrophic occurances. This type of growth and filth cannot go on unabated and unmitigated forever. What has happened is that the insanity that is city life/experience has permeated the psyche of all who stay. You actually think this is normal just because you're used to it or because other cities, other areas are just as (bad) crowded, congested, crime ridden, etc. Tokyo? Shanghai? Hong Kong ? Surely you jest. These examples merely underscore my basic argument; they and their degraded state certainly do not excuse or even explain the ill effects of ignorant human overpopulation/concentration. They serve to prove my point. What? Should SF bay area become MORE like those shining examples? If nothing is done to stop the unbridled growth, this is exactly what will happen. God forbid! Head in the sand mentality/denial. Sit in a car for hours. Stand in line for hours. Become a welfare state. Duck your head as you drive/walk through certain areas for safety's sake, pay exorbetantly high prices for necessities, on and on....this is not healthy nor is it ideal. It is stinkin' thinking.
It matters not whether opionions here are metro to metro or country to country comparisons. There are no limitations to this discussion..it's about quality of life. It's about cost of living. It's about convenience of travel. It's about available and decent living spaces. It's not about controlling the perimeters of this discussion. It's about people asking people their opinions...opinions which are not confined to 'metro vs metro.' Anyone who posts is expressing an opinion. I'm not looking for anyone to "correct" my opinion, I (and all others; those who agree, those who disagree) are merely stating our opinions.
This isn't school. This is an open discussion.
Last edited by Kathy LuckyCat; 11-15-2006 at 02:53 PM..
Kathy LuckyCat thank you so much for your refreshing honesty and right on point so view. Moderator cut: removed Anyhoo. I have found your comments informative and relevant as I am researching moving away from southern California to northern and to escape many of the things you listed above. So thank you again for your honesty and point of view as it will have an impact on how I weigh moving or not to that area.
fbcobrn also had some important things to say as well that resonated. It was interesting too as I was just sharing with a 'friend' from the Vallejo area about the illegal immigrant problems down here in not LA, but in Santa Barbara and how this is really effecting the 'middle to upper class' housing is a very negative way there and also increasing gang activity in that small radius of area in SB. (We were thinking and still are contemplating a move there.) She called me snobby! I was floored. I realized she had no understanding of what I was talking about and assumed that northern California may not be being invaded by illegal immigrants and bringing with them the gang culture that comes alongside. After your posts I can see my 'friend' is either blind living out in her far away development in the boonies (where people actually do their own yards-a phenomenon not seen in the areas I live and would live) si they don't have a lot of illegals living in homes stacked 20 high not far away or they are just . . . blind. Either way, I have gotten a lot from your posts and am reminded the same problems exist up there.
za-fl I cant agree with you more on Orlando. I was there earlier this year and I was really saddened at the downtown and the lack of cultural beauty. We did look at homes over in the Windermere area which was beautiful, but unfortunately the city just looked as you said and there was no way I could see myself living there. It is sad too as the beauty that surrounds it is so magnificent. I don't understand this at all. Maybe I have been spoiled to grow up on the west coast where there is so much up and down the coast to offer when it comes to art and museums etc. You do make some good points about comparing Orlanda and Florida in general to California and even though I am really disgusted with California right now, I must agree with you regarding the comparison and of which is more appetizing to live in. I would love to see this change in Orlando, because you live in a place that has some really neat features. I never felt safe outside of Windermere either which was also strange--that feeling that one could get killed or knifed at any moment. That is not something I feel on a regular basis here in LA in just regular neighborhoods like there in Orlando. Sad but true it was a cultural and safety wasteland. Good luck all with your moves! Prayers up .
za-fl I cant agree with you more on Orlando. I was there earlier this year and I was really saddened at the downtown and the lack of cultural beauty. We did look at homes over in the Windermere area which was beautiful, but unfortunately the city just looked as you said and there was no way I could see myself living there. It is sad too as the beauty that surrounds it is so magnificent. I don't understand this at all. Maybe I have been spoiled to grow up on the west coast where there is so much up and down the coast to offer when it comes to art and museums etc. You do make some good points about comparing Orlanda and Florida in general to California and even though I am really disgusted with California right now, I must agree with you regarding the comparison and of which is more appetizing to live in. I would love to see this change in Orlando, because you live in a place that has some really neat features. I never felt safe outside of Windermere either which was also strange--that feeling that one could get killed or knifed at any moment. That is not something I feel on a regular basis here in LA in just regular neighborhoods like there in Orlando. Sad but true it was a cultural and safety wasteland. Good luck all with your moves! Prayers up .
People on the East Coast and in the Midwest seem to feel Florida is heaven. I actually lived in Orlando for several years and I believe it is much worse than Los Angeles. It never had any museums or art or culture. I remember us driving over an hour once to get some "culture" and we ended up at a jazz club watching some guy play the vibraphone. It was boring as all heck. Anything cultural that comes to Florida at all costs an arm and a leg. You're easily looking at $5 to $10 for parking plus $18.95 to get in -- and this is to see an exhibit you can cover in less than an hour. If they had anything even close to what we have in Los Angeles (like the Getty), you'd be looking at a $65 ticket price. There is nothing "Free" in Florida.
Also, as you stated, crime is much worse down there than it is in Los Angeles. People *think* Los Angeles is dangerous from what they see on TV, but it's really not as bad as living in some of the "nicer" areas of the country. I read in the Orlando Sentinel that Orlando had 42 murders this year (at that point) -- but Orlando is really a tiny city with maybe 300,000 population. Unincorporated Orange County (which is only one of three counties that make up Orlando) had another 50 murders. I don't know about the other two counties. I knew a lot of crime victims when I lived in Florida -- and rough crimes like rape and murder. I only know one out here and I've been here for over 20 years.
Orlando will never change because Florida prides itself on being a "low tax" state. With low taxes, you get a lot of people who don't really want to support "community" projects. They want to be "individuals" and live that individualistic lifestyle -- the one where you don't pay any taxes. They want clean water -- but if you have to have taxes to get it, they'll live with dirty water. (That's a HUGE difference between that state and California.)
So... I think the grass is always greener somewhere else -- that is, until you move there.
Everyone who is unhappy here should move! Maybe they'll find a place they like better?! You just never know until you try it!
From a native Californian who has visited many other areas over the years, I can tell you that California and in particular Northern Ca. is full of arrogant, "wanna be upper echelon," politically correct to a fault parasites. Unfortunately, this once gorgeous area has turned into an overlegislated, restrictive prison. Smog testing? It doesn't even exist in some other states. Why is it here? Because TOO MANY PEOPLE are here..overcrowded..try driving on Hy 80 sometime; in the East Bay Area, SF area, Hy 101 to Santa Rosa...and there is so much building going on, particularly in the northern bay area counties, that it is impossible to navigate from point A to point B..If you enjoy crowding, snobbery or outright (snobs and slobs) lawbreaking under the protection of spinless liberal policies, this is the place for you. If you want sanity, less laws and restrictions on your personal pursuits, property, etc..this is definitely NOT the place for you. The gov. is in your pocket constantly, property taxes, supposedly protected under Prop 13, continually rise due to Bond measure after Bond measure being passed by those who ARE NOT property owners....bonds paid for thru increases to individual property taxes...This is a welfare, socially engineered state. If you are stupid enough to be successful; woe to you as you will be paying for everyone else who is not and who expects you to foot their bills, their illegal occupation, their children, their house payments (thru HUD, "state housing," etc.) All the while, your freedoms are being taken away thru legislative measures designed to curtail your effect on an already overcrowded environment....think not? Consider rent control in S.F. and that, if a property owner wishes to move into their own property they MUST pay a moving expense ($1,000) to EACH occupant of the building (not just wage earning adults, no; ALL occupants) and give an extremely long notice to vacate....AND, during the tenants' occupancy, rents cannot be raised to meet the raises in property taxes and other costs of maintaining the property, insurance, etc. Think about increasing sales taxes, limits on your movement in your personal vehicle, restrictions to the type of vehicle you drive, overly controlling single family building permits while, concurrently, the "powers that be" (building depts., planning depts.,boards of council and supervisor) constantly rubber stamp massive development project after massive development project...you lose, they (supposedly) gain. Think about it...the more people crowded into an area equal less freedoms; more restrictions...and higher cost.
And, while this is all ongoing, Calif. and particularly the S.F. Bay Area, is becoming a third world country...more taking than giving w/no constraints, at all, on this deliterious effect on the fabric of this society.
Oh well, too bad. So, move here...if you haven't thought it over. You'll be moving into the world of the very wealthy or very poor. No problem with that except; if you're working middle class; you'll be paying for all of it...tax breaks for the rich, gov. give away programs for the poor..w/no attempt to monitor either end of the spectrum. Gorgeous environment inhabited by ignorant, humans...Too bad.
Boy do I agree, that's why as soon as our house sells we're out of here and moving to Arkansas.
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Things could get worse
N.Calif to a tee...
.
Boy do I agree!
