SMOG, OVERPOPULATION, ARROGANCE...just a few of the negatives about EGOTISTICAL N. CA (San Diego: best city, apartment)

[Dedalus]

Arrgghh. San Francisco was, once upon a time, a place where an ordinary person could live, where there was a place for the individualist, eccentric, Bohemian, whatever.

Then, the SWARM arrived. I saw a place I had once lived in and loved, the lower Haight, transform from a decent, mixed race, lower middle class neighborhood into a hang out for cyber-yups, 8 billion identical black clad computer geeks, and crankheads.

I had to see this all happen twice. Once, in Manhattan in the seventies, then in San Fran in the 90's. Boho's out, yuppies in. The interesting people, quaint little shops, etc. just get priced out.

But it remains a jewel among American cities. Best weather in America, if you ask me. I will never live there again, but I'll always remember it fondly.

[zzyzx.road]

I disagree with your assessment 1000%. And while we're all here to give our perceptions, yours seem to be lopped and is completely negative based. Doesn't help those who wish to learn about the area at all.

Every big city area has its issues. That's just reality. I've lived and traveled to many cities and states and will tell you that the SF Bay Area is not as decrepit as this poster makes it out to be. It's not all perfect of course but it's not as slumpish or ghetto-like as is made out. Even one of the worst places in the Bay Area, i.e. East Palo Alto is turning for the better. The Bay Area is very pretty compared to many metro areas. The weather is beautiful and while there's a lot of traffic, it by no means has the traffic issues that other areas have. I've lived in LA and will tell you the traffic there is awful. The gang violence is infamous. Traffic is bad in the Bay Area but no way as bad as LA or NYC (where I have also lived). The air in the Bay Area is clean despite the amount of cars.

It's extremely expensive to live in the Bay Area. Why? Because tons of people want to live here. That in itself is proof that this poster's remarks are not on course. People don't pay $700-$1MM for a small house to live in a ghetto. They pay that much to live in a place that is very hospitable, nice and affords them a lot of amenities. Most people will tell you that the Bay Area is unique and SF is a very beautiful city. It's world class, unique and stands out among all the other cities in the country. No, I'm not trying to sweeten the pie, just trying to give you a better picture of what things are. I've also lived in Chicago and NYC and will tell you that the Bay Area is for softies. NYC is hard core, tough and demanding.

It's perfectly OK to say that it's no longer a place for you as you've outgrown or cannot afford the area and need to move but it's really deceiving for newbies who want to learn about the Bay Area to present them with a ghetto and extremely negative beat up image. Flame me if you want but that's my $0.02.

Originally Posted by Kathy LuckyCat

From a native Californian who has visited many other areas over the years, I can tell you that California and in particular Northern Ca. is full of arrogant, "wanna be upper echelon," politically correct to a fault parasites. Unfortunately, this once gorgeous area has turned into an overlegislated, restrictive prison. Smog testing? It doesn't even exist in some other states. Why is it here? Because TOO MANY PEOPLE are here..overcrowded..try driving on Hy 80 sometime; in the East Bay Area, SF area, Hy 101 to Santa Rosa...and there is so much building going on, particularly in the northern bay area counties, that it is impossible to navigate from point A to point B..If you enjoy crowding, snobbery or outright (snobs and slobs) lawbreaking under the protection of spinless liberal policies, this is the place for you. If you want sanity, less laws and restrictions on your personal pursuits, property, etc..this is definitely NOT the place for you. The gov. is in your pocket constantly, property taxes, supposedly protected under Prop 13, continually rise due to Bond measure after Bond measure being passed by those who ARE NOT property owners....bonds paid for thru increases to individual property taxes...This is a welfare, socially engineered state. If you are stupid enough to be successful; woe to you as you will be paying for everyone else who is not and who expects you to foot their bills, their illegal occupation, their children, their house payments (thru HUD, "state housing," etc.) All the while, your freedoms are being taken away thru legislative measures designed to curtail your effect on an already overcrowded environment....think not? Consider rent control in S.F. and that, if a property owner wishes to move into their own property they MUST pay a moving expense ($1,000) to EACH occupant of the building (not just wage earning adults, no; ALL occupants) and give an extremely long notice to vacate....AND, during the tenants' occupancy, rents cannot be raised to meet the raises in property taxes and other costs of maintaining the property, insurance, etc. Think about increasing sales taxes, limits on your movement in your personal vehicle, restrictions to the type of vehicle you drive, overly controlling single family building permits while, concurrently, the "powers that be" (building depts., planning depts.,boards of council and supervisor) constantly rubber stamp massive development project after massive development project...you lose, they (supposedly) gain. Think about it...the more people crowded into an area equal less freedoms; more restrictions...and higher cost.

And, while this is all ongoing, Calif. and particularly the S.F. Bay Area, is becoming a third world country...more taking than giving w/no constraints, at all, on this deliterious effect on the fabric of this society.

[zzyzx.road]

Your comparison with other metropolitan areas of the country is right on. LA and NYC are huge and very, very crowded. I know so many LA people who say the Bay Area is such a relief from LA. And yet Bay Area traffic is no easy potatoes...so can you imagine how much worse it is in LA? Why compare LA? Because you really cannot talk about the Bay Area and CA without talking about LA. Like your statistics indicated, the Bay Area's population is so much lower than the rest of the other metro areas in the country. And crime? Well, we all know LA has hard core crime and gangs. The Bay Area is so much safer than the LA area. Even the bad areas like East Palo Alto, Richmond and parts of Oakland are nothing compared to some LA neighborhoods. And despite all that, I will still also say that there are some very nice LA areas and LA itself is still a very interesting and fun city to be in.

I had to chuckle when the original poster of this thread talks about smog in the Bay Area. Sounds like he/she has not seen smog like that in LA or Houston. The air in the Bay Area is so much cleaner than many metro areas. I have a friend in Shanghai who tells me that the air quality there is so bad that his parked car is frequently dirty.

The Bay Area is not an easy place to live because it is so expensive and that is one area that it does beat LA - home prices. But as I'd indicated in my previous post, there is a reason why people are willing to pay so much to live here. Because it is an amazing area to live in. And it's not ghetto, Third World or whatever horrifying description that has been labeled on it. Sure SF has Hunter's Point and the Tenderloin but these are small areas. SF Bay Area has crime but you are NOT going to get shot at by just standing at your front door. It has traffic but not any better/worse than most large metro area.

Don't be mislead by the original post for this thread.

Originally Posted by speedoflight

I cannot disagree with you re: crime and the degradation of some areas in SF and other Bay Area suburbs. But in all fairness, if you care to look at any other large metropolitan areas in the US and the world, you will see the same issues concerning crime, mayhem, drugs, prostitution, etc. These issues are either wide in the open or they're a little less open but they're all there. However, "Third World" in no disrespect to the countries that are truly Third World, is the not term to be used here. I have been to Third World countries and will tell you that there are many Third World countries that are classified and that term is used on them because of stats like Human Development Index, industrialization/technology index, GNP and they are not classified as Third World because they have all the many social and criminal issues you've described. As a side note, in fact, "Third World" is an out of date and rather derogatory term. These days the UN uses the term, "developing nation". A more appropriate term for the issues you've described would simply be "urban issues" or "big metropolitan issues" and even, "inner city issues". It would be highly unfair to nail these issues mainly to just CA or the SF Bay Area. Go to the NY-NJ metro area, LA-LB-Santa Ana metro area, Chicago-Joliet metro area, etc., and you will see these urban issues displayed big time. If say you don't see the issues in these other areas, I would say one is trying to not see things for what they are. I think it's incredibly important to put things into perspective.

I am not going to go into the technicalities of smog check with you. Do not compare an urban area and a rural area (which you have term "wide open areas") where the population is so much lower. All I can say is I am glad there are smog checks for I have been in metro areas in states/cities/countries where there are not smog checks and the pollution from vehicles is just awful. So again, please compare metro to metro areas.

Yes, the large CA metro areas are overcrowded (LA, 12 million; Bay Area, 4.2 million) but they are by no way as crowded as some other metro areas in the US and in the world. Look at the NY metro area (18 million people); the Chicago metro area (9 million people); the Greater Tokyo Area (35 million people); the Shanghai metro area (14 million people); the Hong Kong metro (7 million in a city state) area. What's the common denominator in all this? Large metro areas of the world are very crowded for they typically contain financial centers and jobs. If you dislike crowds, the answer is simple, move away to a small metro area, smaller city or rural areas. Thankfully, there's still a lot of picks out there for people. And yes, you will gain something for something else that you will lose.

[newportbeachsmostwanted]

I agree with your point on SF's tolerance. -Tolerance for homeless, tolerance for illegal aliens, and tolerance for non-working drug addicts. It is almost out of control.

Also, many of you compared San Francisco to Los Angeles or New York City however you must also consider the incredible size differences. It really isn't fair to compare things like traffic between SF and LA. San Francisco only has 750,000 inhabitants; while NYC has 12 million, and LA 7 million. Boston would be a much better comparison.

Poverty levels are pretty darn high, and illegal aliens from third world countries are on the rise. I do understand the comment about the Bay Area looking like a third world country- but I don't think it's quite there, nor will it ever be.

Desireable places often have the course of being able to weed themselves out of the people that don't deserve to live there. Gentrification will push them out sooner or later. It's only a matter of time.

Originally Posted by mantra

SF is still a place that individualists, eccentric people can live. In other parts of the country...there are many, many places where you cannot be yourself at all. SF is still extremely receiving and accepting compared to many places. Have you ever lived in towns where people are literally scared because they are gay, or hold a different faith? They are shunned or threatened physically. Sure, things do change and yes, they've become very much more expensive in SF but that's to be expected of a city that is small, doesn't have that much space.

I know SF has many issues but I am also not going to say it's as bleak as people make it out to be or perhaps even as bleak as you've listed. So I disagree with you about that part. It still remains one of the most prettiest cities in the world. And it still makes many places look extremely uneducated, uncultured and unrefined.

SF is not a place for people who cannot accept others. Not a place for intolerant people who can't allow others to be.

And NO ONE I know or bumped into in SF has ever and I mean EVER called SF or the Bay Area a Third World Country, ghetto or whatever negative like that or that it is arrogant and egoistical. Almost every new visitor or newbie to the area has always said that Bay Area people are way more friendly and warm than people in other parts of CA.

[UB50]

We lived in Monterey in the 1960s and used to visit San Francisco often. If you think they have drug addicts now, you should have been there then. To me, the city looks cleaner than the 1960s.

Not only that, there were all these murderers on the streets back then... Or maybe they just made a bigger deal out of it. We moved from California to Las Vegas to get away from the crime and as we were moving into our "new home," we noticed the police tape across the alley. Someone murdered the woman across the alley the day before we moved into our new home. We only stayed in Las Vegas for five months, then we were back to Monterey.

Were things really all that great "way back when" or do we just remember them differently? Does time have a way of softening things to where we don't remember the bad parts?

I moved back to Los Angeles when the Hillside Strangler was in the area. I don't remember being scared back then, but heck, I moved from Las Vegas (again!) to Los Angeles. Las Vegas had so much unreported crime it wasn't even funny. It was hard to even make friends. I was talking to a girl I met in a high-end hotel bar once and I told her I was in Sales for another hotel (which I was). She told me she was in "Sales & Entertainment" -- in other words, she was a prostitute who hung out at that particular bar. My job, which really was sales for a hotel, kept me flying out of town all the time -- and I don't remember feeling particularly safe in any city I flew into, in spite of being able to hang out with others representing other hotels. And Las Vegas itself was really horrific. It's a town of nomads and one has to remember that it only really becomes a murder when they find the body. With the miles of desert out there, there are just a lot of missing people.

Anyway, I think some of us who remember "things the way they used to be" ought to really think back. Try to remember the bad parts, then compare them to today. Were you in San Francisco when all the serial killers were there? Did you work in an office building when the Unibomber was around? I don't ever remember San Francisco being some pristine modern city with no problems.

[veganwriter]

Hold up ZZYZX and MONTRA ... we're FROM here.

This tread is an example of how people love fantasy. San Francisco has been described as a "Noir" (as in "Film Noir" and Novel Noir") in itself. In noir novels and films, people are being chased ... or their running to someplace. San Francisco is where they land.

Good for them for a while ... but bad for us ... because it means that the once lovely city is now a stronghold of DRAMA! Dysfunctional DRAMA.

I wouldn't call it a Third World City by no means (It's expensive as HELL ) ... but arrogant? YES!!!! Racist? YES!!!! (It's a subtle kind or racism ... you see in under the covers ... in the people that are and aren't hired ... in the way people are treated at different eating and entertainment establishments ... and yes .. by the police.) Phoney? YES??? and no. I like to think that it's more about whatever people are working on in their lives at the time. Some of this madness is real and truth to some. Some transition and grow through it ... others get stuck and die in it.

It's not the San Francisco the PR people love to talk about. All the "bleeding hearts" here aren't about "empowering the poor" ... it's about the huge money to be made "managing the poor." (I've spent over 16 years in non-profit work ... so please don't try and tell me squat about this...)

Example: San Francisco totally moved OUT the vast majority of the black population that once was here. They called it the Yurba Buena Urban Renual Project. Pure racism.

Example: Blacks now make up only 7 per cent of the SF population ... but black children comprise 71 per cent of the Foster Child population. It's the way our famileis are viewed, treated ... and yes, the fact that the black middle has all but dissappeared. What's left are a few at the top ... and a whole LOT at the bottom ... and even these who live in Bayview-Hunter's Point will have to find a new place to live shortly ... 'cus they've just built a new rail system link out there and now they're planning on gentrfying the "beach area" surrounding it.

See ya folks!

Cars towed constantly, tickets ... and all they're doing is allowing guns and drugs and insantity to flow freely in "Target Zones." But perhaps the worst is ... the stickiness to the city. You don't feel it at first... but after about a year, the City Shadow starts to get to you. (If you like sleeze, you'll LOVE it here.) The underbelly has kicked the floor out of the bottom of the gutter. Satan worshipers, Men and Boy lovers .... you name it and it's mainstream here.

Sad to say, the infamous Gay Mecca sectpr is one of the worst offenders when it comes to class and race. Don't you dare get mad at me 'cus I said it... it's SOOOO well documented on film, in newspapers and in books "galore." (Oh ... and I'm not "Gay Bashing" ... it's not about that ... it's about how people mistreat each other under the disquise of self -righteousness... and all the time continuing to perpetrate.)

It's just one of the facts. "Everything changes." So ... if you don't fit ... and I no longer do... it's time to move to Kansas or Kentucky ... because this here has turned into Mars. AND WE WERE BORN HERE! WE KNOW.

[veganwriter]

I just had to comment on UB50's remark about how bad things were back in the 60s and 70s.

No offense ... but man ... where you been? There were no organized gangs of Thug Kulture running around with Mac 10s and loaded 9mms back then. Yes, even back then, about 30 people disappeared from the streets of San Francisco each month. (That's about one a night.)

But NOW ... they don't even report on all the deaths going on. It's not as bad as Oakland where they're gentrifying West Oakland and pushing some of the gangs out to the already over-crowed East Oakland so they're fighting for turf ... hey ... have you seen the Tenderloin lately?

It makes Dante's version of Hell look like a walk in Central Park. (Pun intended.) If you plan to rent a car while you're here, and it's late, betta know where you're walking to 'cus this ain't Kansas, baby. The worst Kansas had have moved out here.

Let's cut to the chase folks... we've decided to lock up over 2 million people each year. Over 600,000 thousand of them get out and return to the streets each year ... after having been raped and demoralized and taught sociopathic ways of living that they then in turn teach to those of the community who will never even go to prison.

The Regan Era took 54 BILLION dollars out of the urban AND rural housing budget. (It's not my numbers ... it's documented and WELL discussed.) Homelessness suddenly became real in the 80s.

Then they made sidewalk laws that made loitering and homelessness a crime. (The other day I asked who was Oakland's District Attourney. I was told, "We have 20 of them." Do you know how many people they can send to prison, jails and force restitution upon EACH MONTH with 20 DAs? That's Oakland. Just think how many DAs larger cities like LA and NY have processing people.)

• We're eating each other.
• We've been seduced out of our humanity, and now we'er looking for someplace that hasn't.
• It's said Americans spend billions of dollars each year traveling the world, in search of someplace where people will love us--yet we won't even speak to the neighbor who lives right next door.
• We live in a postmodern, alienated, techocratic society. What have they now decided to do with the working class they no longer need?
• They've privatized the prisons. Some folks are making BIG money out of all these people being locked up ... and look what's happened to the cites ... AND the rural areas. (Did you read about the 19 year old from Alabama who raped his mother a few days ago??)
• Correctional Officers have The Best retirment contract in the State of California. Where's our priorities??
• [b]The schools are HORRIBLE.[/B] Warehouses of despair. The decision to not pay for "Their children" is costing us dearly on the other end.
• As many young black men as there are murdering each other daily, AIDS is now the Number One killer of black men 25 years and under. AIDS! (They ain't getting by themselves ... and that sentence is loaded!)
• The Mental Health system has been raped. People who should be in locked wards or recieving psychiatric help are now being locked up in jails and prisons along with the rest of the poor. Everyone knows it... but the Justice System is operating under the same business model as the rest of the Market Place. (The old question returns ... do we want our police and hospitals functioning like major corporations? The more people they get, the bigger the profit?)
• The forcast that Hepititus and HIV/AIDS will eventually over run the Public Health System has already materialzed. We're there. Add all the underpaid migrants, children, enviornmental racism, and baby, it's BROKE. Don't get sick when you're here unless you have some really good Health Insurance.

THINK: WHY ARE WE ALL MOVING AWAY FROM WHEREVER WE'RE PRESENLTY LIVING???

[Need_affordable_home]

I read all the posts and wow its crazy! It appears that the bigger the city, the worse it usually gets. Some people actually like the fun and excitement of a big city, all those stores, malls, bars, clubs, parties, concerts, etc. But with the good comes the bad like crime, drugs, pollution, unfair laws, expensive housing, etc. To summarize it up, metro cities are not for everyone. I thought they were for me but my lifestyle is better suited for a town or small city. No one is making you live in a metro city. If you are happy good for you. If not, stop complaining and do something by relocating elsewhere, simple as that. There is something out there for everyone

[Kathy LuckyCat]

Well, I start this post w/much humility and an apology for those whom I have insulted or dissed. Never meaning to hit on a personal level; it got there, anyway. Here are the reasons I originally posted: I have lived here most of my life. I've lived in the East Bay and attended college there, I lived in SF twice, once in the seventies and again in the '80's. I spent quite a bit of time in SF during the Summer of Love and before; and after. My original post was an expression of total frustration built up over time. There is nothing more beautiful than the sight of San Francisco as you drive over the Bay Bridge. The bay, w/all the sail boats is breath taking. But, the crowding and crime is growing expoentially. I love the SF Giants. I had great seats (just gave them up) and went to LOTS of games (Love Barry Bonds, btw). What happened over years was that, now that I live in the N. bay, we'd have to leave earlier and earlier in order to arrive at PacBel/SBC/ATT park in time to see the first pitch. Good thing we liked batting practice as we always left our town hours early in order to see batting practice and avoid the incredibly backed up traffic (commute time for evening games). I love Golden Gate and Orpheum theatres, love the dining. But, over the years, the city has deteriorated. Traffic has become unbearable and tempers on roads have heightened. On the way to a play, I see many people begging on the streets; some sick, some aggressive. At ball games, the bridge from parking lots to the ballpark are lined w/unfortunate people begging to survive. I'm not going into all the negatives I listed before, but do need to clarify that the city has always been a mecca up until rather recently when, just trying to get there from here has become almost impossible if you don't have hours to do so. My frustration and even anger is that this pretty place is being exploited beyond belief on so many levels which make it harder and harder for some to live here; some to visit and some to survive. Still, as cities go, it is still in the top numbers, but it will take efforts to keep it there. We can't deny that the homicide rate is a big concern as is the condition of many neighborhoods. It isn't an solution to say, simply, love it or leave it or if you "don't like it, leave." If it can be agreed that there are problems which need to be addressed, then those should be addressed and not ignored. So, be vigilent and don't let it be degraded or sold out.

[veganwriter]

Dear Need_affordable_home:

City or Country? I don't think it's an "either/or". At different times in our life, we "need" and desire different things.

It's a combination of living a full life and learning whatever we need during our time here. Many of our problems come from telling ourselves ONE story about our life and never revising it or growing another narrative about it.

I like what Jung, Arny Mendell, Joseph Campbell and the 12 - Step community has to say about the many "Masks" we wear in life. Why let just one get stuck on our heads forever?

I was drawn more to urban centers when I was younger and yearned to learn "Things." Now that I've been traumatized by those things ... I "Yearn" for a quiet place to rest and let the smoke clear from my weary head.