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These So cal examples are nothing like what is been happening in the bay, where they hope to line the entire metro with this stuff
The 91 Express lanes between OC and Riverside and the I-15 Express lanes in SD are EXACTLY what the Bay Area is trying to doing now. I used to work on the I-15 Express lanes project and it works well. They are expanding them currently and will stretch 20 miles from Escondido to the 15/163 interchange. They are 4 lanes total with a movable barrier in the middle so it can be 2/2 or 3/1 depending on need. My buddy from the Bay area was very impressed with them and said he wished the Bay Area had something like that. And conservatives love freeways and paying your own way (ie tolls) so I'm not sure what your rant is exactly about. And in San Diego county they want to expand those types of managed HOT lanes all over the region as well, just look at the future transportation plans at SANDAG's website.
I'm not saying I'm a big fan of these lanes becuase personally I prefer rail and transit over more freeways. But these lanes in SD will also carry Bus Rapid Transit with stations that have direct access ramps to and from the express lanes. So not only will these lanes provide quicker access for solo commuters willing to pay, they can be used for Bus Rapid Transit, a much cheaper yet relatively effective alternative to extending BART. Also many people generally complain about carpool lanes and wasted capacity, so why not sell that wasted capacity and bring in some cash? If anything it's making things more efficient by doing so.
You rant about Bay Area liberals doing things backwards yet they are copying what has been done down in conservative Orange and San Diego Counties. So maybe you might want to change your rant into congratulations for Bay Area leaders for following the examples of more conservative counties.
Coming from out of the area, I am blown away at how poorly the freeways intersect in the bay area. It drives my husband nuts because so much unnecessary traffic is created by people trying to merge into poorly designed freeway interchanges. The 80 maze, the caldecott tunnel, Down in SV... freeways stop and start, oh trying to get to Marin from the east bay also requires getting off the freeway and driving on the Richmond Pkwy for 7 miles w/ traffic lights every 1/2 mile or driving through a scary Richmond ghetto to meet up w/ the 580W. Now people trying to merge into express ways is going to make traffic even worse, not better. What's good about the toll road in Newport is that it covers an entire highway and actually provides a shortcut for people. -This is not the case for the bay area toll roads.
I agree, the freeways are a mess, especially in the South Bay, where suddenly there are like 6 freeways at once, all of them make a U-shaped curve around the bay, which means you have to get on one in order to get to the other, and suddenly east means north or south means west or whatever. It's like a spider's web of lanes going in all directions.
But why are you taking Richmond Parkway to get from the East Bay to Marin? We go to Marin from Emeryville at least once a week (yesterday, for example, enjoying the most perfect afternoon at Stinson, then dinner outdoors at Corte Madera), and the 580 goes directly on to the bridge. Richmond Parkway is only for people from the Richmond / El Sobrante area and points north to go from the 80 to the bridge, rather than go all the way south to the 80/580 interchange. The easy way from the East Bay is to take the 80 East past Berkeley, get on the 580 West just after Gilman St (avoiding most of the bad traffic on the 80), and just driving straight onto the bridge.
The 91 Express lanes between OC and Riverside and the I-15 Express lanes in SD are EXACTLY what the Bay Area is trying to doing now. I used to work on the I-15 Express lanes project and it works well. They are expanding them currently and will stretch 20 miles from Escondido to the 15/163 interchange. They are 4 lanes total with a movable barrier in the middle so it can be 2/2 or 3/1 depending on need. My buddy from the Bay area was very impressed with them and said he wished the Bay Area had something like that. And conservatives love freeways and paying your own way (ie tolls) so I'm not sure what your rant is exactly about. And in San Diego county they want to expand those types of managed HOT lanes all over the region as well, just look at the future transportation plans at SANDAG's website.
No its not the toll on 91 is only a small stretch of that road road.
and the 15 is just a connection from escon-tj to miramar. Thats a miniscule stretch of road compared to what they want to do in the bay area which is span 800 miles of road.
Conservatives like toll roads, that pay for the roads. But we already pay for the roads with our sky high taxes, so why do we need a toll? I would not mind a toll roads all over to pay for the roads, if my taxes were adjusted accordingly. But thats not the bay or california way of doing things, obviously.
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You rant about Bay Area liberals doing things backwards yet they are copying what has been done down in conservative Orange and San Diego Counties. So maybe you might want to change your rant into congratulations for Bay Area leaders for following the examples of more conservative counties.
You should try re-reading your posts when you send them. You make no sense. Where in so cal is there a proposed 800 mile span of toll roads?
La county has 10 million people to the 9 county 7 million in the bay and I dont know of any types of toll roads down there, mcuh less 800 miles of toll roads being proposed. Sorry this is a bay area liberal construct.
And the 680 HOT lane is a long stretch? 14 miles (680) vs 10 miles (91). Yeah that's such a huge difference isn't it?
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and the 15 is just a connection from escon-tj to miramar. Thats a miniscule stretch of road compared to what they want to do in the bay area which is span 800 miles of road.
TJ? The 15 doesn't go anywhere near TJ.
You seriously have no clue what you are talking about. You didn't even know about these HOT lanes/toll roads in Southern CA until someone pointed them out to you. You've never seen them let alone driven on them. The I-15 Express lanes is a major project in SD that will be the model/basis for an entire network of express lanes. I've driven on those lanes and have actually worked for that specific project.
Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Did you miss the part where I said San Diego wants to also expand these HOT lanes across the entire region? Or where I told you to go look at the long term transportation plans at SANDAG's website? Because if you did you would see the I-15 HOT lanes are just part of a much larger network of proposed HOT lanes. It was the first stretch built and it's the basis for a larger network just like this stretch on 680 is for the Bay Area. Just look at the 2030 Transportation Plan for San Diego County on SANDAG's website, those HOT lanes cover the entire region. Get it this time?
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Conservatives like toll roads, that pay for the roads. But we already pay for the roads with our sky high taxes, so why do we need a toll? I would not mind a toll roads all over to pay for the roads, if my taxes were adjusted accordingly. But thats not the bay or california way of doing things, obviously
. Is anyone forcing you to take these toll lanes? To use 680 are you required to pay a toll? Conservatives always complain about wasted capacity in carpool lanes so why not sell that capacity and give people the option of a quicker commute? How is that inefficient? It's actually very efficient by taking existing carpool lanes and selling that extra capacity for single occupant vehicles. If you don't want to pay to use them then don't, stay in the general purpose lanes like the majority of people. Would you rather not even have the option of paying for a quicker commute and just have it be only carpools and Priuses with those stickers instead? Do you even understand the concept of High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes at all?
The biggest argument against these lanes is the whole "Lexus lanes" argument that only wealthy people will use them, which isn't true. And guess who generally are the ones with that complaint? Liberals. This concept appeals to conservatives more so than liberals so that is why it's so ironic that you are against them. But then again, you actually told yourself this was a "bay area liberal idea" and believed that.
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You should try re-reading your posts when you send them. You make no sense. Where in so cal is there a proposed 800 mile span of toll roads?
La county has 10 million people to the 9 county 7 million in the bay and I dont know of any types of toll roads down there, mcuh less 800 miles of toll roads being proposed.t.
Haha, isn't this the pot calling the kettle black. I explicitly told you about San Diego planning these lanes all over the region, did you miss that part? I even gave you the name of the website so you can see it for yourself but I guess you decided to ignore that part or else you would have no basis to continue your uniformed rant. Go to www.SANDAG.org and search for the 2030 Transportation Plan and you will see a big picture of all the HOT lanes that are planned all over the region. Right now I believe they are holding public hearings on the planned expansion of these lanes along the I-5 corridor in North SD County.
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Sorry this is a bay area liberal construct
This is partly why you have no credibility on this subject because it's obvious you are using this project as some basis for a rant against Bay Area liberals even though this idea has been done elsewhere before the Bay Area, including Orange County, San Diego County, and Miami-Dade County. Why don't you actually look up this information before spouting off a bunch of BS that is clearly wrong. A 10 second Google search would show you where all these lanes currently exist and where they are planning to expand them.
List of existing HOT lanes in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HOT_and_ETL_lanes_in_the_United_States
CA: SD, OC and Bay Area
CO: Denver
FL: Miami-Dade
MN: Minneapolis
TX: Houston
Utah: SLC
WA: Auburn to Renton
From that link you can also see areas that are planning to build more, including LA County.
Yeah what a Bay Area liberal construct it is when other conservative areas have already implemented the idea way before the Bay Area.
You are clearly wrong and have no basis for you "Bay Area liberals suck" argument whatsoever since this has already been done in much more conservative areas.
And the 680 HOT lane is a long stretch? 14 miles (680) vs 10 miles (91). Yeah that's such a huge difference isn't it?
TJ? The 15 doesn't go anywhere near TJ.
You seriously have no clue what you are talking about. You didn't even know about these HOT lanes/toll roads in Southern CA until someone pointed them out to you. You've never seen them let alone driven on them. The I-15 Express lanes is a major project in SD that will be the model/basis for an entire network of express lanes. I've driven on those lanes and have actually worked for that specific project.
Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Did you miss the part where I said San Diego wants to also expand these HOT lanes across the entire region? Or where I told you to go look at the long term transportation plans at SANDAG's website? Because if you did you would see the I-15 HOT lanes are just part of a much larger network of proposed HOT lanes. It was the first stretch built and it's the basis for a larger network just like this stretch on 680 is for the Bay Area. Just look at the 2030 Transportation Plan for San Diego County on SANDAG's website, those HOT lanes cover the entire region. Get it this time?
. Is anyone forcing you to take these toll lanes? To use 680 are you required to pay a toll? Conservatives always complain about wasted capacity in carpool lanes so why not sell that capacity and give people the option of a quicker commute? How is that inefficient? It's actually very efficient by taking existing carpool lanes and selling that extra capacity for single occupant vehicles. If you don't want to pay to use them then don't, stay in the general purpose lanes like the majority of people. Would you rather not even have the option of paying for a quicker commute and just have it be only carpools and Priuses with those stickers instead? Do you even understand the concept of High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes at all?
The biggest argument against these lanes is the whole 'Lexus lane" argument that only wealthy people will use them, which isn't true. And guess who generally are the ones with that complaint? Liberals. This concept appeals to conservatives more so than liberals so that is why it's so ironic that you are against them. But then again, you actually told yourself this was a "bay area liberal idea" and believe that.
Haha, isn't this the pot calling the kettle black. I explicitly told you about San Diego planning these lanes all over the region, did you miss that part? I even gave you the name of the website so you can see it for yourself but I guess you decided to ignore that part or else you would have no basis to continue your uniformed rant. Go to SANDAG ::HOME:: San Diego's Regional Planning Agency and search for the 2030 Transportation Plan and you will see a big picture of all the HOT lanes that are planned all over the region. Right now I believe they are holding public hearings on the planned expansion of these lanes along the I-5 corridor in North SD County.
This is partly why you have no credibility on this subject because it's obvious you are using this project as some basis for a rant against Bay Area liberals even though this idea has been done elsewhere before the Bay Area, including Orange County, San Diego County, and Miami-Dade County. Why don't you actually look up this information before spouting off a bunch of BS that is clearly wrong. A 10 second Google search would show you where all these lanes currently exist and where they are planning to expand them.
CA: SD, OC and Bay Area
CO: Denver
FL: Miami-Dade
MN: Minneapolis
TX: Houston
Utah: SLC
WA: Auburn to Renton
From that link you can also see areas that are planning to build more, including LA County.
Yeah what a Bay Area liberal construct it is when other conservative areas have already implemented the idea way before the Bay Area.
You are clearly wrong and have no basis for you "Bay Area liberals suck" argument whatsoever since this has already been done in much more conservative areas.
OWNED LMFAO!! Nicely done.
Its funny how things like this blow up in haters' faces when they don't know what they're actually even talking about and just want to spew hate so badly. LOL.
And the 680 HOT lane is a long stretch? 14 miles (680) vs 10 miles (91). Yeah that's such a huge difference isn't it?
Starting off your arguement with the 91 is a bad way to debate this. And considering you claim the 91 is "exactly like" whats going on in the bay I will provide you with some reality since you seem to be on cloud nine. 91 Express Lanes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The orange county-riverside express lanes is totally different from 680
A. "Opening in 1995, the 91 Express Lanes is the first privately funded tollway built in the United States since the 1940s, and the first fully automated tollway in the world". 680 by contrast is not privately funded, it is funded by tax dollars.
B.91 does not have congestion based fares, all fares are on a time table
C. The expansion of expresslanes WERE MADE OUT OF AN EXISTING MEDIAN. NO LANES WERE SACRAFICED. The freeway itself never changed and no lanes were taken away, lanes were added. Which is a uniquely california republcian way of thinking.(ie when the roads are congested, just build more)
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TJ? The 15 doesn't go anywhere near TJ.
You seriously have no clue what you are talking about.
Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Did you miss the part where I said San Diego wants to also expand these HOT lanes across the entire region? Or where I told you to go look at the long term transportation plans at SANDAG's website? Because if you did you would see the I-15 HOT lanes are just part of a much larger network of proposed HOT lanes. It was the first stretch built and it's the basis for a larger network just like this stretch on 680 is for the Bay Area. Just look at the 2030 Transportation Plan for San Diego County on SANDAG's website, those HOT lanes cover the entire region. Get it this time?
Ill attribute this rudeness to you being a kid, but I already went on SANDAG'S web site and even typed in "2030 transportation plan" Nothing. Which would lead me to suspect that is why you did not bother to post a link. Where as I have been providing documentation. Lets keep stick to claims of substance.
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Is anyone forcing you to take these toll lanes? To use 680 are you required to pay a toll? Conservatives always complain about wasted capacity in carpool lanes so why not sell that capacity and give people the option of a quicker commute? How is that inefficient? It's actually very efficient by taking existing carpool lanes and selling that extra capacity for single occupant vehicles. If you don't want to pay to use them then don't, stay in the general purpose lanes like the majority of people. Would you rather not even have the option of paying for a quicker commute and just have it be only carpools and Priuses with those stickers instead? Do you even understand the concept of High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lanes at all?
Here let me explain this to you. Some of us do not live with our parents, we have bills and obligations and homes, to pay for these things and to provide these things you need what is called a job. When you have a job, there is a thing called income tax. This is a deduction from your salary or wage that you owe to the government. The government uses some of this money for roads. This is in addition to sales tax on every purchase and extra taxes on things like beer or say a toasted sandwich at subway.
So I ALREADY AM PAYING FOR 680, which is supposed to be a freeway open to the public.
Now on the concept of Carpool lanes: The whole point of car-pool lanes is to offer a reduction in congestion by temporarily restricting use of one lane for 6-8 hours (that would be 25 to 30% of the day) to those who are 2 or more to a vehicle. This not only reduces traffic on the other lanes it also provides incentive for people to get to travel more than one person per car. Once the commute hours end the PUBLICLY FUNDED FREEWAY's lanes revert back to normal use.
What this project does is it takes already congested carpool lanes and encourages people who are not 2 or more to a vehicle to get into the express lane. So while 680 usually crawls at 15 miles an hour and the carpool is going 30 at rush hour, now you have the carpool not flowing at all because every mook whos got a fast trak is in the lane thinking they are going to cruise. Mean while the congestion continues in the other 4 lanes.
Another thing and correct me if I am wrong, but this toll lane operates from 5 am to 8 pm. So while with the car-pool lane once commute hours were over, the lane reverted back to its fastlane function for the other 75 to 66 percent of the day. Where as with this, the fast lane only now exists for 9 hours , at night. And dont even get me started on the whole needing some bag ordeal for people who accidentally leave their fast trak on when they are legitimately carpooling.
Instead of restricting freeway lanes and trying to shift space what they should have done was something like the republicans in orange county did, which was create more lanes or roads. The reality of the situation is former congressman pombo was 100% right, 680 would not be half as congested today if there was a freeway linking the central valley to san jose.
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The biggest argument against these lanes is the whole "Lexus lanes" argument that only wealthy people will use them, which isn't true. And guess who generally are the ones with that complaint? Liberals. This concept appeals to conservatives more so than liberals so that is why it's so ironic that you are against them. But then again, you actually told yourself this was a "bay area liberal idea" and believed that.
Yea it is true. You think a janitor who lives in low income housing in san ramon is gonna have the 6 bucks a day to commute versus the silicon valley techie making six figures? And who said liberals are the only ones against this or who this concept appeals to? What quantified data do you have to suggest this? Did you conduct some sort of survey?
What is ironic, to me, is that you, who went to college mis-used the term irony. MOD CUT, but I dont engage in "group think". Political ideologies shift and wade and flip over time. In 1865 the republican party was a black mans salvation, in 1965 not the case. Political theory is a creatively synthisized ideology. Its merely a construct of man, his own ideas. Marx, Hobbes, lock, plato, they are just people like you and I with their own sets of ideas and beliefes. I am a registered independent, Just because you may have some one set up and organize and define your political ideology for you, does not mean everyone else (thank god) does the same.
I support the concept of what 680 had which was carpool lanes. With californias congestion, pollution, and smog, they are a necessity. And people offering a buck or two to ride in it when they are not carpooling defeats the purpose of the lane and does not help congestion in the least. What id does do, is keep the money flowing in government, to pay 600k a year salary, benefits, and pensions. This is all just bay area liberal PORK, PORK, PORK, PORK. This is a bay area liberal construct because the liberal politicians in the state legislature got together and convinced the southern california liberals that this was an idea worth giving funds to, and they gave it their blessing.
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This is partly why you have no credibility on this subject because it's obvious you are using this project as some basis for a rant against Bay Area liberals even though this idea has been done elsewhere before the Bay Area, including Orange County, San Diego County, and Miami-Dade County.
You have yet to offer one link to one site that shows a cohesive plan for 800 miles of public funded freeway to be built. And just because these places have toll roads like the bay does not mean they have the same set of circumstances and functions of government to get these things built. Some places ACTUALLY NEED THIS. As we see in Orange county and san diego these things are actually practical, where as in the bay it is not, it is just for generating revenue. You even noted yourself, san diego has a removable barrier to atleast attempt to weather traffic.
CA: SD, OC and Bay Area
CO: Denver
FL: Miami-Dade
MN: Minneapolis
TX: Houston
Utah: SLC
WA: Auburn to Renton
From that link you can also see areas that are planning to build more, including LA County.
Yeah what a Bay Area liberal construct it is when other conservative areas have already implemented the idea way before the Bay Area.
You are clearly wrong and have no basis for you "Bay Area liberals suck" argument whatsoever since this has already been done in much more conservative areas.
Oh thank god, you provided an actual link. Shall we examine, this is what your source said about UTAHS-" This is not truly a HOT or ETL project, as it operates by selling permits instead of collecting a toll. There is a maximum of 2,000 permits that will be sold"
Oh and heres one for LA "This plan will be implemented in two phases, although it is currently unknown when those phases will take place"- Translation bart has a better chance of getting expanded to san jose before this gets built.
So again I dont know "what conservative areas" do what the bay area is doing and purposing, the only conservative place you listed (Utah) is not even HOT project. Now thats funny, you ask me about my reading comprehension yet it seems like you did not even read the link you provided, which just further prooves my point, that by and large these lanes are simply revenue generating entities (that are in liberal areas). And never mind the fact that those places dont pay nearly what we do in taxes for roads to begin with, so they actually have some merit for road funding.
And not only that your source shows that the bay area clearly is the leader in the number of these lanes being purposed, understudy or constructed. Again, this aggressive form of toll fee is a uniquely bay area concept. When bay area politicians figure out a way to plop on more fees to the masses they go all out and have a bonanza.
So any time you want to show me a place where carpool lanes have been eradicated like they are on 680 or any time you want to provide a link that shows some where else purposing 800 miles of these toll roads I am all ears or eyes rather.
Last edited by NewToCA; 10-04-2010 at 07:23 AM..
Reason: let's not be rude
Its funny how things like this blow up in haters' faces when they don't know what they're actually even talking about and just want to spew hate so badly. LOL.
Starting off your arguement with the 91 is a bad way to debate this. And considering you claim the 91 is "exactly like" whats going on in the bay I will provide you with some reality since you seem to be on cloud nine. 91 Express Lanes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The orange county-riverside express lanes is totally different from 680
A. "Opening in 1995, the 91 Express Lanes is the first privately funded tollway built in the United States since the 1940s, and the first fully automated tollway in the world". 680 by contrast is not privately funded, it is funded by tax dollars.
B.91 does not have congestion based fares, all fares are on a time table
C. The expansion of expresslanes WERE MADE OUT OF AN EXISTING MEDIAN. NO LANES WERE SACRAFICED. The freeway itself never changed and no lanes were taken away, lanes were added. Which is a uniquely california republcian way of thinking.(ie when the roads are congested, just build more)
Ok maybe "exactly" wasn't the best term to use but the 680 HOT lanes is a very similar concept that borrows ideas from the 91 Express lanes.
Oh I get it, it was an insult at Escondido's racial make up, what a typical xenophobic republican remark. And I've never claimed they were finished. being that I actually worked on the project, have driven them, and have seen the construction I'm well aware they aren't finished. I have personal experience with these lanes as opposed to your internet based rants.
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Ill attribute this rudeness to you being a kid, but I already went on SANDAG'S web site and even typed in "2030 transportation plan" Nothing. Which would lead me to suspect that is why you did not bother to post a link. Where as I have been providing documentation. Lets keep stick to claims of substance.
I'll attribute your defensiveness and petty insults to the fact that you are grasping at straws since you obviously have no clue what you're talking about AGAIN. And since you seem to be the little kid I guess I'll have to show you the way. Did you miss the link on the side that said TRANSPORTATION?
Go to page 37 and there is a picture with nice, bright colors so it's easy for you to understand, hopefully at least...
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Here let me explain this to you. Some of us do not live with our parents, we have bills and obligations and homes, to pay for these things and to provide these things you need what is called a job. When you have a job, there is a thing called income tax. This is a deduction from your salary or wage that you owe to the government. The government uses some of this money for roads. This is in addition to sales tax on every purchase and extra taxes on things like beer or say a toasted sandwich at subway.
You call me rude and then you try to insult and talk down to me like this? God, talk about some hypocrisy. Yeah I guess I've never had a job or had to pay bills. I can't believe MOD CUT that you would relish in the fact that I was unfortunate enough to lose my job along with millions of other Americans. Seriously grow up. And my job ever since I graduated college was a TRANSPORTATION PLANNER. I am far more educated and informed of all things related to transportation that you will ever be. You said you work in agriculture, so what the hell begins to make you an expert on transportation planning? You may think you know it all because you seem to easily convince yourself that whatever BS you tell yourself is true and fact but with this topic you are beyond clueless.
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So I ALREADY AM PAYING FOR 680, which is supposed to be a freeway open to the public.
And it still is! No one is forcing you to pay to use 680. What the hell don't you get about that?
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Now on the concept of Carpool lanes: The whole point of car-pool lanes is to offer a reduction in congestion by temporarily restricting use of one lane for 6-8 hours (that would be 25 to 30% of the day) to those who are 2 or more to a vehicle. This not only reduces traffic on the other lanes it also provides incentive for people to get to travel more than one person per car. Once the commute hours end the PUBLICLY FUNDED FREEWAY's lanes revert back to normal use.
Yes and that concept doesn't always work out like its suppose to which is how the whole I-15 Fastrack lanes in SD was born. After they built these carpools lanes in the median they were underused and wasting capacity while the general purpose lanes continued to get worse. So instead of leaving the carpool lanes empty and wasting all that capacity they decided to sell that extra space to SOV. Making the carpool lanes more efficient.
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What this project does is it takes already congested carpool lanes and encourages people who are not 2 or more to a vehicle to get into the express lane. So while 680 usually crawls at 15 miles an hour and the carpool is going 30 at rush hour, now you have the carpool not flowing at all because every mook whos got a fast trak is in the lane thinking they are going to cruise. Mean while the congestion continues in the other 4 lanes.
I guess you still don't understand the concept of congestion pricing. The higher the price the less people will use it. That ensures that not too many cars enter the lanes.
Another thing and correct me if I am wrong, but this toll lane operates from 5 am to 8 pm. So while with the car-pool lane once commute hours were over, the lane reverted back to its fastlane function for the other 75 to 66 percent of the day. Where as with this, the fast lane only now exists for 9 hours , at night. And dont even get me started on the whole needing some bag ordeal for people who accidentally leave their fast trak on when they are legitimately carpooling.
If the carpool lane isn't 24/7, then yes the far left lane is for everyone after 8p till 5a.
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Yea it is true. You think a janitor who lives in low income housing in san ramon is gonna have the 6 bucks a day to commute versus the silicon valley techie making six figures? And who said liberals are the only ones against this or who this concept appeals to? What quantified data do you have to suggest this? Did you conduct some sort of survey?
I didn't say liberals are the "only" one's against this, I said "generally" since they tend to be advocates of the poor and for more transit rather than freeways. Again with the reading comprehension. And what data do you have to show this is true? Did you conduct some sort of survey? Did you do a study? Again, more double standards from yourself. But since you want a study here you go:
"A study done by Cal Poly San Luis Obispo of the State Route 91 express Lanes in Southern California found that "although roughly one-quarter of the motorists in the toll lanes at any given time are in the high income bracket, data demonstrate that the majority are low and middle-income motorists. The benefits of the express lane are enjoyed widely at all income levels."
The study also found that express lane use was more closely tied to current travel conditions and trip needs than income. Express lanes really are a form of "congestion insurance" for any traveler willing to pay the toll - whether it is a businessperson late for a meeting or a parent racing to pick up a child at day care."
Now will you provide me a study that shows your "Lexus Lanes' theory being true?
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What is ironic, to me, is that you, who went to college mis-used the term irony
No I didn't actually, you just can't seem to accept that this project isn't some "Bay Area liberal construct"
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I support the concept of what 680 had which was carpool lanes. With californias congestion, pollution, and smog, they are a necessity. And people offering a buck or two to ride in it when they are not carpooling defeats the purpose of the lane and does not help congestion in the least. What id does do, is keep the money flowing in government, to pay 600k a year salary, benefits, and pensions. This is all just bay area liberal PORK, PORK, PORK, PORK. This is a bay area liberal construct because the liberal politicians in the state legislature got together and convinced the southern california liberals that this was an idea worth giving funds to, and they gave it their blessing.
How is this a Bay Area idea when they weren't even the first, second, third, fourth, etc.. place to build these types of lanes? this is why you are so off base and nothing more than another one of your pathetic anti-Bay Area liberal rants. You just can't accept the fact that this idea didn't come out of the Bay Area. If you don't like the concept then fine, but quit pretending the Bay Area thought of this idea and was the first to implement it because I've showed you over and over that is untrue. Your trollish posts on here just keep getting worse and worse.
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You have yet to offer one link to one site that shows a cohesive plan for 800 miles of public funded freeway to be built.
I've offered several, you apparently don't know how to use the internet very well. I guess clicking on a TRANSPORTATION link on SANDAG's website wasn't obvious enough to you, so my apologies for thinking you would actually know how to navigate a simple website.
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And just because these places have toll roads like the bay does not mean they have the same set of circumstances and functions of government to get these things built. Some places ACTUALLY NEED THIS. As we see in Orange county and san diego these things are actually practical, where as in the bay it is not, it is just for generating revenue. You even noted yourself, san diego has a removable barrier to atleast attempt to weather traffic.
So the Bay area having the second worst traffic congestion in the nation doesn't need this type of congestion relief?
It's so funny how uniformed you are. So SD needs toll roads even though the South Bay Expressway just went BANKRUPT?? And the Transportation Corridor Agencies (TCA) in Orange County has had financial troubles as well with not enough people using their toll roads. Have you ever driven the 73? It's EMPTY.
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Oh thank god, you provided an actual link. Shall we examine, this is what your source said about UTAHS-" This is not truly a HOT or ETL project, as it operates by selling permits instead of collecting a toll. There is a maximum of 2,000 permits that will be sold"
Yet it's on the same page because it is very similar. Not all the HOT lanes projects operate exactly the same. What about all the other projects? The carpools lanes operate differently in Southern CA than they do in Northern CA, does not make them carpool lanes still? A variation on the same concept. Not everything is so black and white.
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Oh and heres one for LA "This plan will be implemented in two phases, although it is currently unknown when those phases will take place"- Translation bart has a better chance of getting expanded to san jose before this gets built.
And do you think the Bay Area's PROPOSED 800 miles of HOT lanes will all get built and within then next decade or two. Here's a little something us transportation planners know, it takes about 20-30 years minimum for a major transportation project to get built from the time it is first conceived.
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So again I dont know "what conservative areas" do what the bay area is doing and purposing, the only conservative place you listed (Utah) is not even HOT project. Now thats funny, you ask me about my reading comprehension yet it seems like you did not even read the link you provided, which just further prooves my point, that by and large these lanes are simply revenue generating entities (that are in liberal areas). And never mind the fact that those places dont pay nearly what we do in taxes for roads to begin with, so they actually have some merit for road funding.
Good lord, I'm tired of having to waste my time explaining these things to you like a little kid because you just don't listen or comprehend well. SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA has a regional network of HOT lanes planned. I've said that in THREE posts now. What on earth don't you comprehend about that? There are regions outside of CA that have HOT lanes planned and are hoping to have a network of them as well. One such example would be in Atlanta:
I-85 HOT Lanes (http://www.dot.state.ga.us/informationcenter/activeprojects/interstates/I85hotlanes/pages/default.aspx - broken link)
Is GA not conservative enough for you?
Here's an interesting first sentence from an article about HOT lanes in TX from 1997:
"California invented the express or HOT (High Occupancy free/Toll others) lanes idea and implemented it first (SR-91 Anaheim, I-15 San Diego) but Texas is taking it big!"
I don't see the Bay Area mentioned anywhere yet you still actually believe this is their concept they came up with. Unbelievable.
You have the internet, if you want to know more about what other regions that are planning a network of these lanes then do a search instead of needing everything spoon fed to you like a little kid.
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And not only that your source shows that the bay area clearly is the leader in the number of these lanes being purposed, understudy or constructed. Again, this aggressive form of toll fee is a uniquely bay area concept. When bay area politicians figure out a way to plop on more fees to the masses they go all out and have a bonanza.
No it doesn't , you just see what you want to see because you simply can't accept the fact that you were wrong and off base in your initial post. You did not know about these lanes in Southern CA or elsewhere and continue to argue that this is somehow the Bay Area's original idea when I've showed you more than enough evidence it's not. Oh but your argument now is that since other region's systems aren't exactly 800 miles or more so then it's completely different. It's not like the Bay Area's size and spread out development pattern has anything to do with the size of their proposed system does it? The Bay Area is copying a concept that has been done elsewhere, it's a simple fact that you refuse to accept because you're too stubborn and can't admit that you were misinformed and wrong.
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So any time you want to show me a place where carpool lanes have been eradicated like they are on 680 or any time you want to provide a link that shows some where else purposing 800 miles of these toll roads I am all ears or eyes rather.
I have so many times now. The I-15 lanes in SD USED to be a carpool only lane. The HOV lanes along I-95 in Miami-Dade County were just converted this year. I've already mentioned these places numerous times. That wikipedia link provided numerous examples of all the different places that have done this. Click on the citations and you can see that many of these projects converted HOV lanes to HOT lanes. And further more, the carpool lanes weren't eradicated at all. Carpools are still allowed to use these HOT lanes for free.
Now that I've spoon fed you the information that you were too lazy to look up yourself like a little kid, what else on earth can I do to show you that this idea of converting HOV to HOT lanes is NOT a "Bay Area liberal construct" at all? Try sticking to things you know, which isn't transportation or the Bay Area.
Last edited by NewToCA; 10-04-2010 at 07:25 AM..
Reason: let's not be rude
I really don't see the value of trying to make an issue about transportation and traffic congestion into an ad hominem attack on partisan political labels.
Why can't we just debate the issues on their merits alone? It's find to disagree about the efficacy of carpool or HOV lanes but it's pointless to throw political rants at each other.
I don't know if it's mentioned before here, but a lot of Federal transportation/highway funding to the states often comes with strings attached, often with some stipulation to increase public transportation or HOV lanes. That may be a bigger factor in deciding what to do with increasing the load capacity of heavily traveled highways. Not to mention plan old common sense.
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