How has the Sacramento Area changed in the last 5-10 years? (Los Angeles: apartments, rental)

[funkykatt]

And look who now is the mayor of Sacramento. Can it get worse?

[rgb123]

Originally Posted by wburg

"City mall" is a contradiction in terms. Cities don't need malls--in Sacramento's central city, if you want to shop, there are plenty of stores on the streets. Midtown has actually done pretty well as a shopping, dining and entertainment district. Macy's does fine, as the only department store left downtown, but you don't need to enter the mall to go there.

The idea of a particular part of town where you only shop (along with another part of town where you only work, and another part of town where you only sleep, each accessible from each other only by car) is a uniquely suburban invention. It has no place in a city.

I'm a planner and I disagree. malls have their place in cities just like stadiums, conference centers, and other attractions. I can't think of any major metro besides maybe Austin that doesn't have a mall downtown that is linked with other attractions or busy areas.

I think the vacancy of units and the gang-bangyness is a bad sign.

[wburg]

"Gang-bangyness" is generally an euphemism for "young nonwhite and/or nonwealthy people go there." Roseville is a far whiter neighborhood, there aren't as many nonwhites who go to the mall because it's a lot longer drive to get there and public transit is pretty much nonexistent.

Retail has a place in cities--trying to emulate suburban malls in suburban settings does not. Urban retail works very differently--and done right, it can be very successful. Midtown is doing good business, because they have the right model--people live there AND shop there.

[mombase]

Hmm, I don't know Chief B, I went out to Arden at Christmas time many years ago to pick up a few gifts for my Sac relatives, and what I encountered had nothing to do with non-white youth! I have been around the block and the world, and I know what represents menacing and intimidating. In my local mall in Henderson, Galleria, we do not permit kids of any color to gather in groups larger than 3 so that the community can be (Feel??) safe when shopping. It's just one way to do it, but a community really has to take a stand in shaping the nature of the shopping areas in its area, or they all turn in to Ardens of some type.

[rgb123]

yes, I live in San Antonio where the majority is non-white. I'm also from Chicago which has it's share of malls within the city, and plenty of non-whites.

I think 'menacing' is a good word and conveys the feeling I got the last time I was at the downtown plaza mall, though it was not completley prominent then I had noticed the change from then and the time I lived there.

I agree public transit should be better. But malls definitley have a place in the city. Here in San Antonio a large mall is the anchor of one end of the Riverwalk, sure it's touristy -- but tourists are not a bad thing for a city's revenue base - and it certainly helps to ward off the gang-bangy ness.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by wburg

"Gang-bangyness" is generally an euphemism for "young nonwhite and/or nonwealthy people go there." Roseville is a far whiter neighborhood, there aren't as many nonwhites who go to the mall because it's a lot longer drive to get there and public transit is pretty much nonexistent.

And Regional Transit, in its infinite wisdom, built the south line to allow the fare-jumping bangers to easily access the K Street Mall and Downtown Plaza with predictable results.

[wburg]

Originally Posted by mombase

Hmm, I don't know Chief B, I went out to Arden at Christmas time many years ago to pick up a few gifts for my Sac relatives, and what I encountered had nothing to do with non-white youth! I have been around the block and the world, and I know what represents menacing and intimidating. In my local mall in Henderson, Galleria, we do not permit kids of any color to gather in groups larger than 3 so that the community can be (Feel??) safe when shopping. It's just one way to do it, but a community really has to take a stand in shaping the nature of the shopping areas in its area, or they all turn in to Ardens of some type.

Policies like that are things established by the private property owner of malls, not cities. Arden security did institute a "no hooded sweatshirts" policy. In terms of laws established by cities or states, I'm pretty sure that banning the assembly of groups larger than 3 would fly in the face of the First Amendment (freedom of assembly) if applied to public property.

rgb123: Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. Malls can exist within city limits, but generally they belong in suburban, car-centric neighborhoods--which tends to be where they are found in Chicago, or in car-centric downtown San Antonio, where downtown is basically a boutique area rather than a mixed-use urban area, or Arden Fair in Sacramento. Malls don't work in urban areas because those places don't work like suburbs, and it is less convenient for suburban residents to visit a mall downtown than to visit the malls in their own suburban neighborhoods. Typically they contain the same stores, and the theaters show the same movies, but they lack the abundant free parking and large, obvious parking lots of suburban malls.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

And Regional Transit, in its infinite wisdom, built the south line to allow the fare-jumping bangers to easily access the K Street Mall and Downtown Plaza with predictable results.

[sarcasm]Why, it's almost as though they had the right to leave the neighborhoods where they live and assemble in public places--like they had the rights of American citizens or something! The cheek![/sarcasm]

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by wburg

"City mall" is a contradiction in terms. Cities don't need malls--in Sacramento's central city, if you want to shop, there are plenty of stores on the streets. Midtown has actually done pretty well as a shopping, dining and entertainment district. Macy's does fine, as the only department store left downtown, but you don't need to enter the mall to go there.

The idea of a particular part of town where you only shop (along with another part of town where you only work, and another part of town where you only sleep, each accessible from each other only by car) is a uniquely suburban invention. It has no place in a city.

I agree. Malls are fine. But they're for suburbs. Trying to put malls in downtown areas is suburban thinking.

[bluevelo]

Originally Posted by wburg

"Gang-bangyness" is generally an euphemism for "young nonwhite and/or nonwealthy people go there." Roseville is a far whiter neighborhood, there aren't as many nonwhites who go to the mall because it's a lot longer drive to get there and public transit is pretty much nonexistent.

Retail has a place in cities--trying to emulate suburban malls in suburban settings does not. Urban retail works very differently--and done right, it can be very successful. Midtown is doing good business, because they have the right model--people live there AND shop there.

Actually, I see plenty of white teens/young adults that dress that way in Roseville, too and in Arden. And act trashy, because they think its cool to do so... sad.

[rgb123]

I don't know that this belongs in this topic -- but I don't get how you back up malls not belonging in the central city -- or rather the CBD. A mall typifies what a central city should contain -- businesses in a dense area.

The fact that they started building malls in suburbs and that started to perhaps help draw people away from cities does not have anything to do with the fact that malls fit, actually, better in a central city.

Putting malls in the countryside started new development and cities around them, or helped. It should have the same effect in the central city.

It may have a commercial feel to it -- but what's the problem, the roof? It's just a lot of commerce in a dense area, and that to me fits 100% in the CBD -- not out in the middle of an exurb.

It's really more of a cat and mouse. The fac they started building malls in the suburbs and country side should not demonify what malls are, simply, a collection of retail stores.

Done well, is an addition to cities. I can think of many. And yes, there are malls in central Chicago. Indianapolis has a great mall (central). San Antonio is dense too, the fact people drive cars in the central city doesn't really make it what I'd call a car city. The downtown is dense.

I have trouble thinking of major cities that do not have malls or commercial retails centers in the central city.

It really seems like you have more problem with the 'connotation' of the mall, or the roof that just happens to bind the stores together.