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I thought it was dead when:
http://www.rnews.com/content/latest_headlines/478624/ren--square--downtown-rbtl-theatre-projects-dead/?RegionCookie=2075 (broken link)
Quote:
The Rochester Broadway Theater League (RBTL) said Wednesday it will look elsewhere to build a theater; several towns have expressed interest, including Brighton.
This is really what gets me, they have argued for so long that people are giving up. People start construction on skyscrapers in less time then these guys are arguing. The mayor says he wants to save $24 million in federal funding, if I were the government, it would be one chance and your done.
I thought it was dead when:
R News | 24 Hour Local News | LATEST HEADLINES | Ren. Square, Downtown RBTL Theatre Projects Dead (http://www.rnews.com/content/latest_headlines/478624/ren--square--downtown-rbtl-theatre-projects-dead/?RegionCookie=2075 - broken link)
This is really what gets me, they have argued for so long that people are giving up. People start construction on skyscrapers in less time then these guys are arguing. The mayor says he wants to save $24 million in federal funding, if I were the government, it would be one chance and your done.
Not sure how much you know about the city and its politics, but, the Hyatt Regency took 5+ years to build due to red tape, delays, lack of funding, etc., and it took an herculean effort to get the damned thing finished. It was like that hotel project in Pyongyang, DPRK, which has been abandoned for a while.
I have relatives and friends across Upstate who claim that Rochester is somehow a shining example of civic order and progress Yeah, maybe compared with 1975 Warsaw, Poland. Having lived in Rochester most of my life, I have plenty to say to the contrary. The Hyatt fiasco was a nationally known joke at the time, and made Rochester look like a civic backwater which couldn't get anything finished. Hate to say it, but, RenSquare would have turned into the biggest albatross Upstate, NY, has ever seen. The red tape, corruption, delays, cost-overruns, etc., would have killed the project, mid-stream, and I'm glad for the sake of the people there it was abandoned. Bad enough the taxpayers are on the hook for the ferry, I'd hate to see Rochester embarrassed to the tune of $250M-$350M so Maggie Brooks or somebody else can put their name on a local, poorly planned bus terminal nobody wants. Most of the Sibley building is vacant except for the MCC campus, and there's a ton of other vacant office space, downtown. RenSquare would have added 300K sq. ft. of office space. I mean really, now, who is thinking this stuff up?
I have "water cooler" stories I tell my co-workers about Rochester goings-on and past "WTF?" stuff, there, and they just laugh and shake their heads. RenSquare and the potentially mosquito, bum, and trash-infested re-filling of the Erie Canal bed downtown have to be the dumbest ideas to come down the pike in Rochester, in many, many years. How anybody could seriously consider the latter is beyond me, and it speaks volumes of an area which is stagnant, and seemingly running out of ideas. Yeah, I want to sip on coffee or beer in downtown Rochester while getting bit by mosquitoes, whereas one can hang out on Park or whatever and probably tap away on their laptop using WiFi (I'd hope that's the case, at least) and enjoy a nice summer evening. Sheer desperation (see Fast Faerie fiasco), there, yet the $$$ always goes back to the developers, the unions, sundry other businesses, well-connected rich people, etc. It's the same-old, same-old. No net job creation, no fixing what the REAL problems are, just putting band-aids on stuff which really aren't band-aids.
The letters to the editor of the D&C are classic. Typically, it's some rich ditz or dude from Pitt$ford or the city extolling the virtues of a RenSquare or a freakin' canal in the middle of downtown, in fact come to think of it I wonder what people in neighboring Buffalo and Syracuse think when they see/hear about the news in Rochester. 'Course it's all about Pitt$fordites, since only they would be the ones to go to a show at a perf. arts center in the middle of downtown at $100 a pop, then sip on a latte by a freakin' canal to nowhere, then drive home to Pitt$ford. They and some city dwellers are the crowd in Rochester which extol the "virtues" of these asinine ideas.
As far as projects getting off the ground are concerned, you're 100% correct. Kodak wanted to build a brandie new factory in Rochester back in the mid-90's, but the red tape and BS both at the state and local levels was too much to bear, so they lobbied Colorado and had one built there in under 6 months. This was after the Hyatt was FINALLY completed.
RenSquare would have turned into fodder for late night TV comedians, trust me, it was that bad an idea. Imagine they tear down the buildings and find skeletons in the old vaults under Main St. (the old cash and whatnot vaults for the stores and banks are still underground), and/or there's a huge hole in the ground for 10 years. I'm serious. Midtown has the potential of becoming the same thing, since the word on the street is that Chesonis guy won't "man up" and back away from the tower project he'd undoubtedly put his name on (6 months before his company got bought out, and moved. Could happen, and I wouldn't trust that guy or put it past him.).
At that point I would swear off that town 'til the day I die, and would deny having ever been from there. I'd start telling people I'm from Buffalo or Milwaukee.
Hey, but, the county manager (Maggie) has county residents' best interests in mind, right?
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Last edited by HowardRoarke; 08-01-2009 at 11:42 PM..
Not sure how much you know about the city and its politics, but, the Hyatt Regency took 5+ years to build due to red tape, delays, lack of funding, etc., and it took an herculean effort to get the damned thing finished. It was like that hotel project in Pyongyang, DPRK, which has been abandoned for a while.
I have relatives and friends across Upstate who claim that Rochester is somehow a shining example of civic order and progress Yeah, maybe compared with 1975 Warsaw, Poland. Having lived in Rochester most of my life, I have plenty to say to the contrary. The Hyatt fiasco was a nationally known joke at the time, and made Rochester look like a civic backwater which couldn't get anything finished. Hate to say it, but, RenSquare would have turned into the biggest albatross Upstate, NY, has ever seen. The red tape, corruption, delays, cost-overruns, etc., would have killed the project, mid-stream, and I'm glad for the sake of the people there it was abandoned. Bad enough the taxpayers are on the hook for the ferry, I'd hate to see Rochester embarrassed to the tune of $250M-$350M so Maggie Brooks or somebody else can put their name on a local, poorly planned bus terminal nobody wants. Most of the Sibley building is vacant except for the MCC campus, and there's a ton of other vacant office space, downtown. RenSquare would have added 300K sq. ft. of office space. I mean really, now, who is thinking this stuff up?
I have "water cooler" stories I tell my co-workers about Rochester goings-on and past "WTF?" stuff, there, and they just laugh and shake their heads. RenSquare and the potentially mosquito, bum, and trash-infested re-filling of the Erie Canal bed downtown have to be the dumbest ideas to come down the pike in Rochester, in many, many years. How anybody could seriously consider the latter is beyond me, and it speaks volumes of an area which is stagnant, and seemingly running out of ideas. Yeah, I want to sip on coffee or beer in downtown Rochester while getting bit by mosquitoes, whereas one can hang out on Park or whatever and probably tap away on their laptop using WiFi (I'd hope that's the case, at least) and enjoy a nice summer evening. Sheer desperation (see Fast Faerie fiasco), there, yet the $$$ always goes back to the developers, the unions, sundry other businesses, well-connected rich people, etc. It's the same-old, same-old. No net job creation, no fixing what the REAL problems are, just putting band-aids on stuff which really aren't band-aids.
The letters to the editor of the D&C are classic. Typically, it's some rich ditz or dude from Pitt$ford or the city extolling the virtues of a RenSquare or a freakin' canal in the middle of downtown, in fact come to think of it I wonder what people in neighboring Buffalo and Syracuse think when they see/hear about the news in Rochester. 'Course it's all about Pitt$fordites, since only they would be the ones to go to a show at a perf. arts center in the middle of downtown at $100 a pop, then sip on a latte by a freakin' canal to nowhere, then drive home to Pitt$ford. They and some city dwellers are the crowd in Rochester which extol the "virtues" of these asinine ideas.
As far as projects getting off the ground are concerned, you're 100% correct. Kodak wanted to build a brandie new factory in Rochester back in the mid-90's, but the red tape and BS both at the state and local levels was too much to bear, so they lobbied Colorado and had one built there in under 6 months. This was after the Hyatt was FINALLY completed.
RenSquare would have turned into fodder for late night TV comedians, trust me, it was that bad an idea. Imagine they tear down the buildings and find skeletons in the old vaults under Main St. (the old cash and whatnot vaults for the stores and banks are still underground), and/or there's a huge hole in the ground for 10 years. I'm serious. Midtown has the potential of becoming the same thing, since the word on the street is that Chesonis guy won't "man up" and back away from the tower project he'd undoubtedly put his name on (6 months before his company got bought out, and moved. Could happen, and I wouldn't trust that guy or put it past him.).
At that point I would swear off that town 'til the day I die, and would deny having ever been from there. I'd start telling people I'm from Buffalo or Milwaukee.
Hey, but, the county manager (Maggie) has county residents' best interests in mind, right?
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Well I don't know everything about the city and its politics. I have been in the city for more than two years now and I am still learning. You claim you want to say your from Buffalo. When Buffalo is not much different in terms of politics and are just as corrupt as Rochester. The only thing that has kept Rochester ahead, at least in terms of economy, is its optical business, which in the past two decades has dramatically slowed. I really don't know Milwaukee at all except it had huge crime problems and managed to fix them enough to get off the front page news.
I mean this is 300k square ft of space, which by todays standards, is not all that big. And these are just proposals, no shovels have been put into the ground yet. The only thing that has moved forward is shutting down midtown and finding an asbestos removal company. So five years, to decide on an idea? How long did it take to plan the new Bank of America building in Manhattan before construction?
So it is dead for sure. I was wrong planners have been talking this project for 7 years, so actually since around 2002. Would have been one of the largest projects in Monroe county. Cost the taxpayers $1.5mil in planning and legal fees. I really like NY, but these are exactly the problems that I do not like about it. You figure this is about the time frame it has taken to start the new World Trade Center. And that is a supertall skyscraper which had far more planning and criticism than Ren Square. RenSq was a 300,000 sqft project that did not start because nobody could come to a consensus on it.
This my friends, is precisely why the NY government needs consolidation, too many people have their hands in any one project. NYC needs this style of government, Upstate NY does not.
So it is dead for sure. I was wrong planners have been talking this project for 7 years, so actually since around 2002. Would have been one of the largest projects in Monroe county. Cost the taxpayers $1.5mil in planning and legal fees. I really like NY, but these are exactly the problems that I do not like about it. You figure this is about the time frame it has taken to start the new World Trade Center. And that is a supertall skyscraper which had far more planning and criticism than Ren Square. RenSq was a 300,000 sqft project that did not start because nobody could come to a consensus on it.
This my friends, is precisely why the NY government needs consolidation, too many people have their hands in any one project. NYC needs this style of government, Upstate NY does not.
The 300K sq. ft. in office space was in addition to whatever office space would be needed for the terminal, plus whatever space they needed for the buses (what would have been the rented out office space was "tacked-on", which makes no sense). It was going to be a terminal and another office building, despite the fact Sibley tower right across the street is mostly vacant (where MCC is), and Midtown across the way is 100% vacant. The Sibley building has millions in back taxes owed on it by a member of the Wilmot family (they own Wilmorite Corp.), and are big time contributors to the local democratic party (just an aside, here).
What gets me is Midtown (a complex of 9 buildings I understand are now vacant, with no firm plan on what to do with it) has beau coup office space, and there's a ton of office space all over downtown Rochester. Why they would add another 300K sq. ft. is beyond me. Last I knew, the office building next to Kodak tower was mostly vacant, and what is there are companies which rent from Kodak (making restaurants across the street at the old button factory and into High Falls a moot point).
Again, terrible civic planning. Why not re-do the Sibley building and some of the Midtown complex, and put a park on some of the property they condemned or wanted to condemn for RenSquare? Make a deal with the land owners where Ren would have been built.
Being that you're from out of town you might find the Mortimer St. Parking Garage story funny. It was condemned and thus closed for years, 'cause it was falling apart. It was built in the 70's, and the legend is the mob was involved and they skimped on the building materials, which is why it started falling apart prematurely. That was an eyesore for years, and I think I'd heard somewhere it's a vacant lot now ('bout time), and this parcel was going to be the back side of RenSquare. It straddled Mortimer and N. Clinton. See the South Ave. garage ramp collapse from a while back, for reference.
RenSquare cost county taxpayers somewhere in the range of $18M-$22M, and they never even got around to putting a shovel in the ground or knocking down a building (Mortimer St. garage was knocked down with seperate funding, I think).
RenSquare started out as a stand alone performing arts center ~10 years ago. Only became "RenSquare" when powerful special interests got involved in order to try to get their hands on whatever federal funding they could get, and after Maggie Brooks got elected to county manager. I remember the media reporting on the arts thing, and thinking "Huh", 'cause it seemed like a decent idea which might have deserved some study. But noooooooooo. All these hands got into the pot (to include Schumer, the unions, the construction co's/lobbyists, etc., etc., etc.) that it turned into a fiasco not worth pursuing. A college, an ill-designed bus terminal in a bad location for it (due to the traffic), and a perf. arts center. Most if not all would have been tax exempt, which is another thing to consider. Too much of Rochester, Buffalo, etc., is tax exempt property, these days.
My attitude is if Mr. and Mrs. Pitt$ford want to see a Broadway show, certainly they can afford the short drive down the Thruway to Buffalo, even to stay the night, or drive to Toronto. N. Clinton & Main needs to be developed as a tax-revenue producing several block area, but perhaps not right now considering the economy. The city could build on what they already have, THEN entertain development in that area 3-5 years down the road.
But that's not Maggie's way, and the same goes for the rest of the greedy well-connected types who get stars in their eyes when government $$$ is waived in front of them.
The 300K sq. ft. in office space was in addition to whatever office space would be needed for the terminal, plus whatever space they needed for the buses (what would have been the rented out office space was "tacked-on", which makes no sense). It was going to be a terminal and another office building, despite the fact Sibley tower right across the street is mostly vacant (where MCC is), and Midtown across the way is 100% vacant. The Sibley building has millions in back taxes owed on it by a member of the Wilmot family (they own Wilmorite Corp.), and are big time contributors to the local democratic party (just an aside, here).
What gets me is Midtown (a complex of 9 buildings I understand are now vacant, with no firm plan on what to do with it) has beau coup office space, and there's a ton of office space all over downtown Rochester. Why they would add another 300K sq. ft. is beyond me. Last I knew, the office building next to Kodak tower was mostly vacant, and what is there are companies which rent from Kodak (making restaurants across the street at the old button factory and into High Falls a moot point).
Again, terrible civic planning. Why not re-do the Sibley building and some of the Midtown complex, and put a park on some of the property they condemned or wanted to condemn for RenSquare? Make a deal with the land owners where Ren would have been built.
Being that you're from out of town you might find the Mortimer St. Parking Garage story funny. It was condemned and thus closed for years, 'cause it was falling apart. It was built in the 70's, and the legend is the mob was involved and they skimped on the building materials, which is why it started falling apart prematurely. That was an eyesore for years, and I think I'd heard somewhere it's a vacant lot now ('bout time), and this parcel was going to be the back side of RenSquare. It straddled Mortimer and N. Clinton. See the South Ave. garage ramp collapse from a while back, for reference.
RenSquare cost county taxpayers somewhere in the range of $18M-$22M, and they never even got around to putting a shovel in the ground or knocking down a building (Mortimer St. garage was knocked down with seperate funding, I think).
RenSquare started out as a stand alone performing arts center ~10 years ago. Only became "RenSquare" when powerful special interests got involved in order to try to get their hands on whatever federal funding they could get, and after Maggie Brooks got elected to county manager. I remember the media reporting on the arts thing, and thinking "Huh", 'cause it seemed like a decent idea which might have deserved some study. But noooooooooo. All these hands got into the pot (to include Schumer, the unions, the construction co's/lobbyists, etc., etc., etc.) that it turned into a fiasco not worth pursuing. A college, an ill-designed bus terminal in a bad location for it (due to the traffic), and a perf. arts center. Most if not all would have been tax exempt, which is another thing to consider. Too much of Rochester, Buffalo, etc., is tax exempt property, these days.
My attitude is if Mr. and Mrs. Pitt$ford want to see a Broadway show, certainly they can afford the short drive down the Thruway to Buffalo, even to stay the night, or drive to Toronto. N. Clinton & Main needs to be developed as a tax-revenue producing several block area, but perhaps not right now considering the economy. The city could build on what they already have, THEN entertain development in that area 3-5 years down the road.
But that's not Maggie's way, and the same goes for the rest of the greedy well-connected types who get stars in their eyes when government $$$ is waived in front of them.
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Very true. My thoughts are, if they were smart. They would do what the nearby Medly center is doing and making midtown, and the tower into a multi-use building. Instead of tearing down the tower, put new glass up to make it more attractive, maybe a spire on top to make it look more modern. The building really is ugly. Put some aparments/business/storefront right inside. And if there is money saved, give discounts to new businesses who want to relocate there.
Very true. My thoughts are, if they were smart. They would do what the nearby Medly center is doing and making midtown, and the tower into a multi-use building. Instead of tearing down the tower, put new glass up to make it more attractive, maybe a spire on top to make it look more modern. The building really is ugly. Put some aparments/business/storefront right inside. And if there is money saved, give discounts to new businesses who want to relocate there.
Exactly. Remove the urban renewal facade. Put a mix of stuff on the property.
Medley could be reconfigured to include a north side MCC campus. MCC in Brighton is still close to the south side of the city and a few of the 'burbs/ northern Livingston Cty. A campus in Irondequoit would serve city, north side, and NW Wayne Cty. residents well, perhaps some Greece folks, too.
I guess cleaning up perfectly good buildings downtown isn't sexy, though. Which kills me. Demolish some buildings, clean up and reconfigure a few, and start from scratch on some of the land, in downtown Rochester.
Instead, they'll keep hemming and hawing.
The environmental abatement and demolition alone would be multi-year projects, but would be a start. Keep the Magadino's from Buffalo, and sundry Rochester special interests, out of it, and just do it.
The problem is that with some of these buildings, cleaning up the buildings would be more expensive than just knocking them down and re-building.
I would like to see some of the historic builings kept, becuase thats what gives a city its character, but these ugly urban renewal buildings can go. Midtown is a very very ugly set of buildings. I don't know what would replace it since I find most modern articheture to be bland, but what is there now is horrid.
When local leaders declared the Renaissance Square project dead, much more than $24-million dollars in federal funding was lost.
"I'm not a crying man but I sure felt like it,” Frank Wirt, president of the Rochester Building and Construction Trade Council said.
For more than eight years Wirt worked with local, state and federal leaders to secure money for what was the Renaissance Square project. His goal was to get the thousands of trade workers he represents back to work.
"That's all we really want is to build stuff to feed our families and provide the health care and everything else that we do," Wirt said.
Wirt says the construction industry is the worst it's been since the 1970's.
Here's the deal: Maggie Brooks pushed for and got legislation passed after her being elected, which requires that any municipal project in Monroe County have a certain % of local (Monroe County) help, and I think they have to be 100% union. There's also a "living wage" stipulation in there for municipal projects, as well. A PRIVATE project (like Duffy seems to now be pushing) does not have such stupid rules applied to it. No wonder Mr. "Normally I'm Not A Crying Man" is beside himself over RenSquare having been killed off. The guy mentioned in the article too how inner city minorities would have comprised 25%+ of the work force on Ren. So, we have unions and PR at work here (potential votes). Duffy killed off this asinine proposal, just like he so masterfully killed off the ferry. Ren would have had tens of millions in cost overruns, possible union strikes/walkouts, union stalling, etc.
So, now that area will get private projects which will generate tax revenue, and will not be a bone thrown to the unions. The construction firms can hire whomever they want to hire, from all over the place (not just Monroe County).
I'd love to be a fly on the wall this week at the county office building.
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Last edited by bellafinzi; 08-07-2009 at 01:17 PM..
Reason: Copyrighted article
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Yeah, maybe compared with 1975 Warsaw, Poland. Having lived in Rochester most of my life, I have plenty to say to the contrary. The Hyatt fiasco was a nationally known joke at the time, and made Rochester look like a civic backwater which couldn't get anything finished. Hate to say it, but, RenSquare would have turned into the biggest albatross Upstate, NY, has ever seen. The red tape, corruption, delays, cost-overruns, etc., would have killed the project, mid-stream, and I'm glad for the sake of the people there it was abandoned. Bad enough the taxpayers are on the hook for the ferry, I'd hate to see Rochester embarrassed to the tune of $250M-$350M so Maggie Brooks or somebody else can put their name on a local, poorly planned bus terminal nobody wants. Most of the Sibley building is vacant except for the MCC campus, and there's a ton of other vacant office space, downtown. RenSquare would have added 300K sq. ft. of office space. I mean really, now, who is thinking this stuff up? 
