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Ok, so growing up in Salt Lake City as a non mormon leaves me with questions about this religion. Why do they do baptisms for the dead? What it seems to me is that they are just looking for a way to raise their number of members. If a person has passed away, and for whatever reason in they're life weren't baptised, then why do it after the person has already passed when they don't have any say in what is happening? What if they didn't want someone to be baptised for them? When they do these, do they actually count that as one more tally on people who are a part of their church? Im not saying this to attack the church, I respect other religions, would just like an answer from someone who knows.
Ok, so growing up in Salt Lake City as a non mormon leaves me with questions about this religion. Why do they do baptisms for the dead? What it seems to me is that they are just looking for a way to raise their number of members. If a person has passed away, and for whatever reason in they're life weren't baptised, then why do it after the person has already passed when they don't have any say in what is happening? What if they didn't want someone to be baptised for them? When they do these, do they actually count that as one more tally on people who are a part of their church? Im not saying this to attack the church, I respect other religions, would just like an answer from someone who knows.
I've been asked this question (or a variation of it) so many times on other forums that I just decided to copy and paste my response from when I've answered it in the past.
Let's start with the fourth Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It states, "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and fourth, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost." This Article of Faith is important to our discussion.
As you may or may not know, we Latter-day Saints believe that (1) Baptism is a sacred ordinance required of everyone; (2) Baptisms must be performed by immersion by one who has been given the authority to do so, (3) When a person dies, his spirit leaves his physical body but does not cease to exist, (4) millions have died without receiving this ordinance, and (5) God loves all of His children equally and has provided a way for everyone who has ever lived to receive this ordinance prior to the Last Judgment.
Looking at each of these five points in greater detail...
(1) Baptism is a sacred ordinance (some would refer to it as a "sacrament") required of everyone who has ever lived. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ is recorded as having said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He actually went so far as to stress that "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." To further emphasize the need for baptism, Jesus Christ went to John the Baptist and asked that he baptize Him. If you will recall, John's response was to ask, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" And Jesus' response was, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." We have clear evidence for the importance of baptism. It is not optional for us; it was not even optional for the one individual who has ever lived who was without sin.
(2) Baptisms must be performed by immersion by one who has been given the authority to do so. The Apostle Paul's words in Ephesians 4:5 that there should be only, "one Lord, one faith, [and] one baptism." When Jesus established His Church, He called and ordained specific individuals, giving them the authority to perform certain functions, including the saving ordinance of baptism. We Latter-day Saints do not believe that anyone who wishes to baptize someone else has the authority to do so. This authority must be passed down from one person who already holds it to someone else. John the Baptist held the proper authority to baptize, which is why Jesus specifically went to him.
(3) When a person dies, his spirit leaves his physical body but does not cease to exist. It goes to the Spirit World where it will reside until the resurrection of all mankind, at which time it will rejoin the physical body it once inhabited, that body having been renewed, restored to a perfect state and made immortal. The Spirit World in spoken of in the scriptures by two names: Paradise and Prison. It is referred to by both terms because it is both things. To the righteous, it is a place of peace and rest, but to the wicked, it is a Prison, a place where they will be tormented with guilt for the way in which they lived their lives. As the spirits of the deceased await the resurrection of their physical bodies, they continue to learn and grow spiritually. They also retain the free will given to them by God when they came to earth to experience mortality. Those who did not have the opportunity to hear or understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ while they were on earth, will have that chance while in the Spirit World. Jesus himself will not be there, as He is now with His Father in Heaven. But others, those who already have the knowledge of our Father's Plan of Salvation, will teach them and give them the opportunity to accept and take advantage of the gospel message. Once a person comes to realize the significance of Jesus Christ's Atonement on his behalf and is sincerely repentant of his sins, he has fulfilled the first two principles of the Gospel (as outlined in the fourth Article of Faith). He is now on his way to being a recipient of the grace offered to all by Jesus Christ.
(4) Millions have died without receiving this ordinance or having received it but not by the prescribed means (immersion) or by someone who had been given the proper authority to perform it. Many lived prior to when Jesus did. Many others have lived since then, but in parts of the world where Christianity was not known. Some live today in places where converting to Christianity is a capital offense. And finally, for reasons known only to God, some have simply not been able to grasp the truth when it was presented to them. They simply chose a different path, one that was probably right for them.
(5) God loves all of His children equally and has provided a way for everyone who has ever lived to receive this ordinance prior to the Last Judgment.It goes without saying that baptism is an earthly ordinance. It would be quite impossible to immerse a spirit in water. Going back to point #1, though, baptism is a required ordinance for entry into the Kingdom of God. Those spirits who accept the Gospel message while in the Spirit World have completed the first two steps towards receiving the Savior's gift of salvation. But without the help of someone on earth, they can go no further.
Hebrews 11:39-40 speaks of those whose faith was strong and who despite not having heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, were good people who lived essentially worthy lives, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
Just as Jesus Christ atoned for our sins, He has given us, the living, the opportunity of doing something to help those who went before us. As this passage explains, God has blessed us with greater knowledge than they had and has given us the privilege of helping them reach a goal they could not otherwise reach – the fulness of salvation and eternal life in the presence of God. As in ancient times, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints practice vicarious baptism for our deceased ancestors who died without having received this ordinance. I can, and have, stood in as a proxy for someone who is dead, and have been baptized on their behalf.
In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul used the practice of baptism for the dead as an argument to support the reality of the resurrection of us all. In referring to the members of Christ’s Church who were privileged to perform proxy baptisms (for not all are), he asked, “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Many people make the mistake of assuming we believe that we are surreptitiously seeking to force our beliefs on those who have no choice in the matter, and they are not counted in the Church membership figures. First of all, we have no way of knowing which of the spirits awaiting the resurrection will be receptive to the message they hear. We are baptized on behalf of as many of them as we can possibly identify. Their free will is every bit as operative in the Spirit World as it was during their mortal lives. Should the choose to accept this ordinance done for them, most likely by one of their descendents, it will be as if they had been baptized while they were here on earth. Should they reject it, it will be considered null and void. We do this work out of a genuine love and concern for those who cannot do it for themselves, and not for any other reason.
At any rate, that’s the doctrine as we practice it. We believed it was revealed to latter-day prophets that this work was to be done, and we are grateful to be able to do it.
When you get the doctrine they practice [wrongly] from the Mormons, just keep in mind that "baptism for the dead" in the Scripture is in context to the "dead Adam flesh body" being subjected to water baptism in the faith and hope of the resurrection of it in the regenerated image of the body of Christ. If the dead [Adam flesh body] rise not, why are they [confessing believers] baptized for the dead [Adam flesh body]? -reasons Paul, in Corinthians.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1Cr 15:16 For if the dead [body] rise not, then is not Christ raised:
As a former Mormon, and one who knows, I can say that Katzpur has appropriately represented the Mormons understanding of the ordinance and why they do it.
I should add, that the Mormons do more than baptize by proxy for the dead in their temples. They also stand in for the dead, so that the dead can receive what is called their "washings and anointings" and their "endowment".
As a former Mormon, and one who knows, I can say that Katzpur has appropriately represented the Mormons understanding of the ordinance and why they do it.
I should add, that the Mormons do more than baptize by proxy for the dead in their temples. They also stand in for the dead, so that the dead can receive what is called their "washings and anointings" and their "endowment".
MMMegan: Babies who are baptized don't have much to say about it either. Possibly "Waaaahhh".
For sincere truth seekers with an open mind, there is a much broader context of scripture available in these the Fulness of Times. The mind and will of the Lord has been clearly revealed on the matter of infant baptism.
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. Moroni 8: 8-10
"But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten; Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;" D&C 29: 46-47
25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.
26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.
27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands. D&C 68: 25-27
Baptism is somewhat of a controversial subject even within the christian faith the later made up of many denominations performing it as anything
from a sacrament,public witness of faith or in the Pentecostal/Apostolic faith a absolute must for salvation. Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. "He who believes AND (AND) is baptised shall be saved but he who has disbelieved shall be condemed" Also being able to
repent appears to be a essential part of baptism putting the cabash on infant baptism and after death baptism. Furthermore we christians even
evangelicals are really Catholic clingons as we baptize in the "titles" of the trinity (pretty good company) but unfortunately a perversion of scrip-
ture ignored and beweirdedly bypassing Acts 2 :38 and accepting the council of Nicea's change in 325AD to slam dunk the name of Jesus Christ
for the triune fomula (it's too insane to go there). The apostles baptised in the NAME which has bigtime unrecognized meaning (s). Mormons are
good people but religiously loose canons. Theoretically,even praying for the death is ludicous not to mention baptizing after death. This walk to
eternity is tough enough without these bizzare and distracting doctrines.
In Christ DAS
Last edited by DASULAR17; 01-30-2010 at 09:24 PM..
Reason: Format tweek
It's a bit odd, but baptism of the dead in some ways seems nice to me. If I understand if Mormonism is right the non-baptized don't necessarily go to Hell or even Limbo. At worst it sounds like it would amount to some Mormons telling me in Purgatory "do you want to be baptized a Mormon" and me telling them "Thanks, but seeing as we're in Purgatory I don't exactly see the point."
Plus as I have some Mormon third cousins or something if a Mormon ever raps on my door I can just tell them I have Mormon relatives and if I'm interested I'll talk to them or they may posthumously baptize me. If as I think it's not real I don't see the harm to me and if it is real than how nice of them.
Granted I don't think that's quite an appropriately orthodox Catholic view. I think we're ideally supposed to see it as a heretical ritual, but I don't know. It doesn't seem like they're demanding I take part in such a ritual or do anything related to it at all. If someone I don't know read about me in a newspaper, which is vaguely possible, and prayed to Vishnu for me should I be offended? I just don't think I would. They mean well and they're not forcing anything on me.
Now if a Mormon went up to me after my Dad dies, as my Dad is the one with the Mormon relatives, and said "Your Dad is now a Mormon like us" I might be annoyed. I don't think they do that or think that way though. (If they said "we like to think your Dad is now a Mormon" I might be okay with that, but probably not at the funeral Mass as that would be inappropriate I think. I just don't think Mormons would be rude or foolish like that)
I do not consider those who have had baptisms done for them after death to be "Mormon". Agency is still very much alive and well in the next life. Those who haven't heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ are given a chance to accept or reject it. If accepted then the baptism is as well. If rejected then the baptism was just a big waste of time.
If I ever heard anyone say 'Your Dad is Mormon now' or 'We think of him as a Mormon now' I would be very upset, too!
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Baptism for the dead
