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I'm not arrogant enough to say that there is no God.
Did I just detect the first rude word in an otherwise friendly conversation? (arrogant). I don't consider myself to be the least bit arrogant. I'm just expressing my opinion and the reasons that caused me to form that opinion.
Did I just detect the first rude word in an otherwise friendly conversation? (arrogant). I don't consider myself to be the least bit arrogant. I'm just expressing my opinion and the reasons that caused me to form that opinion.
No, sir. I was honestly not trying to poke anyone in the eye there. I'm just saying that I don't claim to have that knowledge. My apologies if you took it personally....it wasn't my intent.
OK, tough question and I can't rep the OP but I thank MontanaGuy for his constance in trying to keep the conversation open. It's still morning here and I stopped drinking coffee years ago, but I'll try...
It always comes down to the problem of knowledge. The existentialist understanding (because I was a college student once and that's pretty much part of the syllabus of Youth) is there's constant tension between subjectivity and objectivity, understanding the falseness in perceiving essence--a being-in-itself, the object, the "truth" of it, even oneself--in essential nothingness. So as a matter of human freedom, living one's life is a progression of erasures: seeing or feeling, then negating any ultimate grasp as an illusory reach. This logically extends to science, at least philosophically, or anything we think we can purely understand and quantify absolutely through ego... Art, personal relationships. Love, for crying out loud...
Now, there may be better ways to synthesize the concept of nothingness in the universe with human consciousness of Life, and I've probably conveyed the thesis poorly or questionably, but to the best of my descriptive ability that's just my history with this problematic approach, as requested by the OP. So to sum up: My own most powerful argument for belief that there is in fact something essential in the universe is that, sure, I may like some of his movies, but OMFG who the HELL wants to live like a Woody Allen character?
Last edited by Bunjee; 05-01-2009 at 11:17 AM..
Reason: Clarity
When I consider my point of view as an atheist and what has finally led me to hold the position that God (I'm referring to the Christian faith) does not exist and that I live in a universe in which there are no supernatural beings I see a couple of things that seem to stand out.
The most obvious problem I can see with the Christian faith is that it's been two thousand years since Jesus was supposed to have been resurrected and he was supposed to have come back to earth but he never did. After such a huge expanse of time I see that as a reason to believe he's never going to.
The creation stories of Genesis with God creating the universe in six days, the obvious mythology of the story of Adam and Eve, the impossible saga of Noah's ark and the countless contradictory passages in the Bible combined with the manic depressive behavior attributed to God appear to me to be overwhelming evidence that the Bible is not based on reality.
No one has ever presented any credible evidence of a miracle, the existence of the soul, life after death, and the list goes on. All of these factors have persuaded me to be an atheist.
I'm interested in hearing what other atheists as well as Christians feel are the most powerful influences that have shaped their belief or lack of belief. I have no doubt of the sincerity of Christians and I know that most of them must have some personal experiences that have led them to hold a point of view that is completely different than mine. So without insulting each other and in the spirit of friendly and constructive debate, what has shaped your beliefs?
WEll, for me I don't need anymore proof of God because He already gave me proof in the past. He came to me and responded and I had an encounter with God and that is all the proof that I need. I don't feel the need to give my proof to people, because if doesn't matter to me what people think of what I believe in. I have no concern of what they think of my faith, so I don't feel the need to argue. It's that simple for me.
I could care less what others believe or not believe, I worship God for who He is. God shaped my belief, nothing else. HE did it, because He came to me, when I didn't even know who He was, or even knew what a bible was. So, I learned who God was from Him and having encounters with Him. Then I started reading the bible but already knew about the God I was reading about, because I was spending time with Him already. So, that is where my faith came from. It didin't come from people, but from God Himself. It was that simple for me.
So, I learned who God was from Him and having encounters with Him. Then I started reading the bible but already knew about the God I was reading about, because I was spending time with Him already. So, that is where my faith came from. It didin't come from people, but from God Himself. It was that simple for me.
That's exactly how my Mother and one of my sisters feel. I think it's a common feeling among Christians and I do think I understand your point of view. Thanks for your thoughts.
"What Do You Consider To Be The Most Powerful Arguments For Your Belief Or Lack Of Belief?"
Beautiful question:
The most powerful argument that I would consider for my unbelief are QUESTIONS. Questions that seem to be unanswered no matter how many explanation that I had read. I do believe that there is a GOD.. I believe in JESUS.. Guess that the most powerful argument that I consider for my belief was the very fact that I believe that from the existence of men it was embedded in his nature to know that there is a more powerful being that exist and it is a driving factor that a lot of religions existed from the beginning of time. No matter how I place it and even if i tried to convince myself the doubtful things in this world and beliefs of the religion today, my belief will remain intact cause there is no harm in having faith and putting your trust in the LORD and having a blessed hope in this life and the other.
The lack of predicted evidence, in the form of propheses or of findable factual empirical evidence, that a God-story would logically predict and then provide.(our just "being here", for example, doesn't qualify as "evidence" in the rational scientific mind. There are other, better, explanations now.)
That, when coupled with my personal early mid-life (38 - 45 yr age-range) introduction to the natural and engineering sciences, taught me about logical, rational interpretation of things around me, and taught me to be skeptical of fantastical promises and stories. The soft sciences that I also took (philosophy, psychology) seemed to be justifying rather wishy-washy means of labelling and cataloging otherwise unidentifiable and indeterminate feelings or conclusions. "Faith-based" didn't cut it for me.
(Not to mention all the endlessly, horrifyingly bad things that God openly allows on this planet, to wholly undeserving children, women, animals, etc.)
So, when you meld those things all together (no God-evidence, versus lots of ever-growing scientific evidence; senseless violence & discord in this world, and vaporous philosophical definitions for faith-based thinking); my "version" of reality won out, and is still confirmed to this day for me as I cruise into my '60s.
I was brought up as C of E and was a Christian for 25 years - totally convinced. Then I had a break from church - not from choice - I work as a nurse and was working nearly every Sunday, and shifts the rest of the time so found it hard to attend. This break gave me the time to do some of my own learning about the Bible rather than being spoonfed verses and explanations at church - and it just didn't make sense - a lot of it is brutal and violent, the "morals" make no sense - it appears to be OK to get your father drunk and have sex with him, or to hurt your slave so badly that they can't get up for 3 days so long as they don't die straight away - and on and on - it became clear to me that these were stories written by men who had little knowledge of pretty much anything, let alone an omniscient being! And they began to make more sense to me in a storytelling and promoting a sense of community sort of way. (Hope that makes sense - have had 2 glasses of wine!)
After that it wasn't long before he went the way of Santa and the tooth fairy.
I feel much better since, and the universe has never been more complex and beautiful.
I LOL'd at the people saying about suffering for Women, Children and the Elderly - what about the poor fellas? They suffer too you know!! Us women don't have the monopoly on suffering!
I feel sorry for the blokes too.
I'm not arrogant enough to say that there is no God. It's only logical that for every thing that exists, there had to have been a cause.
So then explain to me how it's logical that an all-knowing, all-powerful being doesn't need a first cause.
Double standards are so convenient when you need them, aren't they?
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